Ideas for Applications and Animations

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Re: Ideas for Applications and Animations

Post by LloydK on Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:04 pm

L: It's only the free electrons hovering near the wire that produce the magnetic field around the wire. Isn't it?
A: Disagree. Electron emissions are photons, generally unhindered by the wire and so photon emissions emerge from free electrons distributed throughout the wire's volume. It’s not yet established that electrons cause the magnetic field. The discussion isn’t over and you're making a case too. I hope you’re not thinking about high frequency skin effects.
M: (i.e. Miles:) http://milesmathis.com/strong.html
The linear energy of the photon field is the foundational electric field and the angular energy of the photon field is the foundational magnetic field. I say "foundational" because the photon field cannot create electricity or magnetism without the presence of an ion field. The photons must drive electrons or positive ions in order to create the forces of electricity and magnetism. Normally, the photons cannot create macro-fields on their own (except in the case of gasses).


L: Here's what I'm picturing: the surface of the wire has stationary electrons; above them are free electrons; this is an electron: =e=; it's an electron gun which takes in photons from one direction and shoots them out 180 degrees in the other direction; photons shooting out of wire surface electrons with axes near-parallel to the wire cause free electrons to spin also parallel but reverse CW or CCW; the free electrons also shoot the photons along; here's a diagram:

Electrons: =e= =e= =e= =e= =e= =e=
Electrons: =e= =e= =e= =e= =e= =e= =e=
Wire __________________________________

So it's the electrons, not photons, creating the magnetic field (and the electric field too). Eh?

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Re: Ideas for Applications and Animations

Post by LongtimeAirman on Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:31 pm

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Lloyd, using this tiny diagram:

               =e=

I believe you said that photons come in one = and exit the other =. If so, I do not agree. Using that same diagram, I would say that photons enter from the top (or bottom) of the e, and exit through the = which actually forms a ring about the e. The electron acts like a tiny proton with its emission plane indicated.

Using this larger diagram:

A. The side view of electrons within an energized wire. Poles are aligned to receive photon current (left-right) directly into the electron poles (left/right). The electron's photon emissions are shown by the = sign pointing above and below the wire (up and down, as well as, in and out, in this image). This is the situation I was trying to describe.
B. This is a copy of your previous diagram shows electrons outside the wire's surface. I suppose they may be receiving energy from the wire either directly above or below the electron. A portion of the electron's emissions are along the wire length, there are also emissions in and out of the page. The electrons' photon emissions in this image cannot form a magnetic field.
C. After discussing this with you, I believe external free electrons may orient parallel with the wire's internal free electrons (in the energized state). These electrons' photon emissions will add to the magnetic field around the wire, if they are actually there.

Coherent emitted photons create the magnetic field.
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Re: Ideas for Applications and Animations

Post by Nevyn on Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:08 pm

In that quote, Miles is differentiating between what is the electric and magnetic fields and what is measured as the electric and magnetic fields. He is gluing the photons, which actually cause all of the forces, with what the mainstream has called electricity and magnetism. So ions are needed for us to measure magnetism, but are not required for it to exist.

It does bring up a very good point, though, the ions are what get moved and it is the ions that interact with larger objects and cause them to move. I was missing that part.

So, inside of the wire, we only need something to send some of the current photons towards the outside of the wire. It could be electrons and protons or it could be atoms. Those photons keep the same spin as when they were in the current. That means that even though they have changed direction by 90°, their spin axis has not changed at all. This is required to make the magnetic field curve in the right direction.

Any ions in the field around the wire will feel the forces of those photons and will rotate around the wire, creating something that we can measure. We now have a much larger field than we started with. By that, I mean the players in that field are much larger. We started with photons and we now have electrons, protons and possibly atoms. Larger players does two things: it slows everything down and it provides more mass.

Slowing down is important because we started with photons that are moving at c. We now have ions which will move much slower but also provide more mass allowing that field to cause forces on larger objects. Note that the forces are the same but we have taken 1000 small forces and put them into 1 entity with 1000 times the mass, for example. This also explains hysteresis because it takes time to transfer all of those small forces to the larger entities.

This model just keeps getting bigger and bigger! Maybe I picked the wrong thing to implement.
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Re: Ideas for Applications and Animations

Post by Nevyn on Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:17 pm

Great diagrams Airman! That really does save a thousand words, doesn't it?

I agree with A and C, although I more agree with D which is like C but with protons and possibly atoms surrounding the wire and we are still ignoring the atoms in the wire so I might prefer E which has atoms instead of, or as well as, the electrons inside the wire.
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Re: Ideas for Applications and Animations

Post by LongtimeAirman on Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:55 pm

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In the search for perfection, one must accept imperfections. I saw Lloyd's idea and went with it. A simple cartoon diagram can be very effective. Internal and external atoms and electrons on a single diagram complicate an image tremendously. When you set out to do a simulation, you want the most sophisticated images possible, cartoons are just a suggestion. You're aiming for reality. Design decisions mean a lot more effort. I salute you.

I like the idea of exterior sub-light speed matter surrounding charged particles. Here, electrons around the wire. Around the Earth we have the ionosphere and perhaps electron layers high above the atmosphere.

If an atom in a solid can re-orient itself spherically, well then, why wouldn't it? If atoms in a solid align to changing charge source directions, we may use the atomic orientations within a solid to monitor the changing constellations. How then could the atom maintain its unique molecular structure? It seems far more likely to me that charge channels are baked into the solid. Ambient photons colliding with proton matter in the solid are "orthogonalized" into those baked in channels. There is no reason for the atoms in a solid to reorient because those channels were formed under higher photonic current conditions and can handle the charge load from any direction without having to change its constituent atomic orientations.

I also believe atoms are necessary for the magnetic field, atoms are several thousands of times larger than the electrons, recycling thousands of times the charge. The interior of the wire is at a higher energy state than the surrounding area. I mentioned saturation in an earlier post. Resonance may be involved. Atomic emissions from small scale crystaline molecular structures may form initial coherent drivers for the free electrons within those domains. The magnetic field would then be the sum of many such domains. I don't know, that may be a bit hinkey.

The 6 Sacred Stones are at my elbow. It's due back in a month. With all due respect to your sensibilities I'll try to hold it for a couple of weeks in hopes of finding earlier works. I can't promise anything. Thanks again.
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Re: Ideas for Applications and Animations

Post by Nevyn on Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:17 am

I think that the atoms are very close to each other while at STP. They are close enough to touch, as much as such entities can touch. This stops the atoms from reorienting themselves. If you raise the temperature though, each atom gets more charge and pushes against all other atoms. This is why things expand with heat and contract with cold. This creates enough room for them to react to that charge flow and reorient themselves to it. When the current stops, they probably align to the Earths charge field as they cool down.

The Six Sacred Stones is the second Jack West Jr novel, so you only need to find Seven Ancient Wonders. I have a vague feeling that order means more in this series than the Scarecrow novels which were actually written to be as self-contained as possible. But if it comes down to it, read it anyway, for sure. The stories are fine and enjoyable in their own right, it is only the characters that have a bit more back story. I fear that there might be spoilers for the first book in the second book though.
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Re: Ideas for Applications and Animations

Post by LloydK on Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:02 am

Agree
Airman, actually, my symbol =e= was meant to represent through-charge through the electron's polar openings, not regular charge through the electron equatorial disk. I meant for each = to represent a pole of the electron. I should have explained when I posted that. So, believe it or not, I meant the same thing that you showed, where the two = represents the electron disk. I was saying that the through-charge stream exiting each electron spreads out slightly in order to pass the charge onto free electrons close to the wire surface. So I agree with your parts A & C, but not B.

Conductors
My diagram ignored the atomic structure of the wire. I was only attempting to focus on the electron aspect first, but obviously we need the atomic structure to explain why some things conduct electric charge and others don't. So we should list things that do and don't conduct charge and see how some may block charge. (See List under Addendum.)

Under charge carriers, Wikipedia says:
"In metals, the charge carriers are electrons. One or two of the valence electrons from each atom is able to move about freely within the crystal structure of the metal. The free electrons are referred to as conduction electrons, and the cloud of free electrons is called a Fermi gas."
- So they reference the crystal structure too. Besides metals, it also lists electrolytes, plasma, vacuum and semiconductors as charge conductors. But liquid Hg is also a conductor. Is it an electrolyte?

Carbon etc
Among solids, carbon can be a good conductor or an insulator. I guess graphite (& diamond) has crystal structure. Are carbon electrodes made of graphite? What about carbon fibers or nanotubes? Plastic insulation is usually mostly hydrocarbon polymers, I think. SiO2, glass, is a good insulator. Miles illustrated Co2 structure, but I don't recall him illustrating SiO2. Are they likely arranged the same way?

Metals
I guess many metals conduct charge. Does Li? Some metals stay pure, but most tend to oxidize on the surface. I think the oxidation acts more as an insulator. Doesn't it?

Electric Field
MIT said at http://web.mit.edu/sahughes/www/8.022/lec05.pdf that "There is no electric field inside a conductor". And it shows "Figure 1: Conductor near an external charge. The charges in the conductor very quickly rearrange themselves to cancel out the external field."

Addendum: List
From https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/direct-current/chpt-1/conductors-insulators-electron-flow
"Here are a few common examples of conductors and insulators:
Conductors: silver, copper, gold, aluminum, iron, steel, brass, bronze, mercury, graphite, dirty water, concrete
Insulators: glass, rubber, oil, asphalt, fiberglass, porcelain, ceramic, quartz, (dry) cotton, (dry) paper, (dry) wood, plastic, air, diamond, pure water"

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Oersted's law

Post by LongtimeAirman on Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:48 pm

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I've been trying to review stuff, anxious to get to Lloyd's carbon conductors and MIT Field Around a Conductor Lecture.

But first, better late than never, some essential pertinent background in line, and agreement, with our discussion.
From wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oersted%27s_law

Oersted's law

In electromagnetism, Ørsted's law, also spelled Oersted's law, is the physical law stating that an electric current creates a magnetic field.

This was discovered on 21 April 1820 by Danish physicist Hans Christian Ørsted (1777–1851), when he noticed that the needle of a compass next to a wire carrying current turned so that the needle was perpendicular to the wire. Ørsted investigated and found the physical law describing the magnetic field, now known as Ørsted's law. Ørsted's discovery was the first connection found between electricity and magnetism, and the first of two laws that link the two; the other is Faraday's law of induction. These two laws became part of the equations that govern electromagnetism, Maxwell's equations.

Ørsted's rules Ørsted found that, for a straight wire carrying a steady (DC) current
    The magnetic field lines encircle the current-carrying wire
    The magnetic field lines lie in a plane perpendicular to the wire
    If the direction of the current is reversed, the direction of the magnetic force reverses.
    The strength of the field is directly proportional to the magnitude of the current.
    The strength of the field at any point is inversely proportional to the distance of the point from the wire.

Direction of the magnetic field

The magnetic field (marked B, indicated by red field lines) around wire carrying an electric current (marked I).
The direction of the magnetic field at a point, the direction of the arrowheads on the magnetic field lines, which is the direction that the "North pole" of the compass needle points, can be found from the current by the right hand rule. If the right hand is wrapped around the wire so the thumb points in the direction of the current (conventional current, flow of positive charge), the fingers will curl around the wire in the direction of the magnetic field.

I’ll stop there. The article continues, containing:
Vector form of the law
Footnotes
References

The wiki article also includes a video demonstration, a compass and wire apparatus showing Ørsted's experimental finding. The current is switched on, off, on, off. The voltage appears DC since both on and off deflections were repeated.
Here are two images from that video.



When the current is switched on, the needle points perpendicularly away from the conductor, shown on top. Again, this agrees with our previous discussion, in the energized state, photons are being emitted perpendicularly away from the conductor.

The video surprised me. When the current is off, the needle mostly returns to a position parallel with the conductor, the bottom image. I don’t know the conventional explanation for that. It seems to me that if the current is off, the electron orientations return to their de-energized state; there is still a natural photon current along the outside of the conductor which the bottom compass needle aligns itself too to.
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Last edited by LongtimeAirman on Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:33 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : strike too)

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Re: Ideas for Applications and Animations

Post by LongtimeAirman on Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:18 pm

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Lloyd wrote.

Electric Field
MIT said at http://web.mit.edu/sahughes/www/8.022/lec05.pdf that "There is no electric field inside a conductor". And it shows "Figure 1: Conductor near an external charge. The charges in the conductor very quickly rearrange themselves to cancel out the external field."
"There is no electric field inside a conductor". The statement is used to develop the theory being presented in the lecture, but you point to the contradiction. The instructor notes the fact that when an outside charge is brought near the conductor, the conductor’s internal E-field exists for some brief period of time - related to the material’s resistivity - before the conductor redistributes its internal charges and restores a new steady state equilibrium.

So, if I understand correctly, for conductors, during equilibrium, there is no internal E-field without some external E-field change. Note this happens to agree with Faraday’s law, moving a bar (or a magnet) through a wire coil, the E-field is created by the relative motion between the coil and bar; without motion, there can be no E-field.
 
The statement is true in the sense that it is based on the limits of our measuring capabilities. Theoretically, the statement is false and misleading. According to charge field theory, each photon conveys both the pre-electric and pre-magnetic fields through the proton's mass, radius, linear and rotational velocities. The conductor and surrounding space is constantly filled with photons, constantly filled with E-field. Our devices are limited in that they can only respond to net charge field displacements by the resulting effect on electrons or ions. Our devices don’t measure photons themselves. Faraday's Laws may need a rewrite.
 


I'm most comfortable with field type questions. I'm keenly ignorant in the area of atomic structures. I've reviewed your articles and then some. Carbon is an amazing element. In the thread above, you supplied the Carbon on the right. Since I'm not adequately knowledgeable on the subject, I decided to name it after you. Here's my guess of what a 4 Carbon atom long wire would look like.



You made a lot of questions/statements, please repeat any I've missed.
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Re: Ideas for Applications and Animations

Post by Nevyn on Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:03 pm

I think Lloyd got that Carbon image from the paper on Methane as that changes the structure of Carbon. The first version in your image is the natural Carbon and the one that should have been shown.
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Re: Ideas for Applications and Animations

Post by LongtimeAirman on Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:20 pm

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Hey Nevyn, Any new Carbon ideas yourself? Any recommendations on how to go about approaching the subject. During the discussion it was mentioned that the single string of elements may be a bit too simple. I could imagine these strings in parallel bundles, each offset from its neighbors to favor current flow. Does that sound likely? I expect a Carbon lattice I'm imagining might be a good conductor in one direction but it might be insulating against current flow in an orthogonal direction - current flow along the bundles or bumping into the sides of bundles, only one direction (say left/right) works. Where might electrons tend to distribute themselves between energized and de-energized states? Just trying to whip up discussion.
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Re: Ideas for Applications and Animations

Post by Nevyn on Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:03 pm

You have to distinguish between Carbon as an element, and Carbon as part of a molecule and even Carbon is some larger structure. You can't just say that Carbon conducts because some molecule that it is a part of conducts. Similarly, you can't say that Carbon conducts just because Carbon nano-tubes conduct. You have to deal with the full structure. If nano-tubes conducted the same as Carbon on its own, then there would be nothing special about nano-tubes.

Any element can conduct cause that just means it can pass charge. It is the elements that conduct more than most that we usually call conductors. Carbon is too small to have much impact on its own. You need a larger element that has more protons to push the charge through and it might also be related to the space within the elements structure that allows it to store charge.

One thing about the small elements though, is that they do not have carousel levels, which means they pass most charge straight through. Although some is emitted by the core proton stack, just like a carousel level.

So, I don't think I really have much to say about Carbon as a conductor. It can, but not like Copper or Silver. If in a molecule or larger structure then it is those things that are conductors, not really the Carbon itself, although it obviously plays a part.
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Re: Ideas for Applications and Animations

Post by LongtimeAirman on Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:54 pm

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I guess I can't discuss Carbon with you, I don't know enough. I do know a thing or two about conductors.

Metal conductors are special, because they have enabled our electrically powered society. I normally look beyond metal conductors at this point, visualizing other charge flows. I see nature as superabundances of charge, all part of the ongoing equilibrium in the recycling process.

For example, I have experience in properly protecting metals such as underground pipes, support structures or electrical grounding systems against the cumulative corrosive effects of contact with the earth. High value infrastructure requires sacrificial anodes with battery currents ensuring that ions flow toward, rather than away from the structure you're trying to protect. Permanent dedicated circuits with many periodic tests. An important detail few people are familiar with, allowing an expanded view of charge flow between infrastructure systems and the earth.
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Re: Ideas for Applications and Animations

Post by LloydK on Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:16 pm

Copper
In the Superconductivity paper Miles said:
... conductivity is defined as the ability of a substance to conduct charge. Normally, what is conducted is electricity, but at the fundamental level* electricity is charge conducted linearly by the nucleus, (while magnetism is charge conducted orthogonally). To see what I mean, we have to consult my diagram of Copper, which I have recently imported into this paper from my newer paper on Period 4 (http://milesmathis.com/per4.pdf).
- In short, Copper conducts well because it channels charge efficiently from south pole to north pole. All elements normally channel from pole to equator, and Copper still channels a large percentage that way; but Copper channels more from pole to pole than any other element except Silver. To understand exactly why, you will have to read that paper, but studying Copper helps us understand what conduction is as a matter of charge channeling.

- Here's his image for copper:

- Since he says copper is almost the best conductor, I suppose yous will want to simulate magnetism around copper wires firstly.
- Can the simulation help determine if the electrons around the wire are what manifests the magnetic field? Remember, there are said to be over 10^21 free electrons per mm of conductor.
- It's the electrons that magnetic field detectors measure; isn't it? The photons align and cause the electrons to align, causing the magnetic field. But instruments apparently don't detect the photons. Right?
- So how about experimenting with aligned spinning photons parallel to the conductor/s causing electrons to align and spin parallel also? And show how that causes the attractive & repulsive forces between the wires. Is that difficult?
- Note that Miles says copper conducts charge from its south pole to its north pole. But in the real world, I don't imagine the copper atoms turn around 180 degrees if current is applied in the opposite direction through the same conductor. So maybe it's simplest to ignore the structure of the conductor for now and concentrate instead on the outside photons and free electrons and surface electrons.

Airman said:  I have experience in properly protecting metals such as underground pipes, support structures or electrical grounding systems against the cumulative corrosive effects of contact with the earth. High value infrastructure requires sacrificial anodes with battery currents ensuring that ion flow toward, rather than away from the structure you're trying to protect. Permanent dedicated circuits with many periodic tests.
Are you looking forward to AI drones or robots taking over that monotonous testing work? Or would you like to ride along to supervise?

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Re: Ideas for Applications and Animations

Post by Nevyn on Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:44 pm

Miles says that Copper channels from south to north because it has an imbalance in the north/south hook stacks. There are 2 protons in the south stack and only 1 in the north. So Copper actually would flip if the current reverses (and is strong enough) because it can push more charge through from the south than it can from the north. Note that names like north and south do not relate to earthly directions, but to the locations on the elemental structure which are oriented such that the south has more hook protons than the north, when there is an imbalance.

The atoms should not matter too much with respect to the magnetic field around a wire. There may be small differences but I don't remember ever hearing of it being measured.

This simulation, actually animation, is not going to help in any other way than to express what we decide it should. It might help us visualize what we are discussing and we might change things once we see it in action, but it is just an animation of our ideas. That is why I call it an animation and not a simulation. Simulations implement collisions. Animations show the results of collisions. Or you could look at it that a simulation is an experiment while an animation is the interpretation of that experiment. Not exact analogies but I hope you get the idea.
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Conductors and Magnetometry

Post by LongtimeAirman on Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:34 pm

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Lloyd wrote - Since he (Miles) says copper is almost the best conductor, I suppose yous will want to simulate magnetism around copper wires firstly.
Airman. Lloyd, you or I aren’t the ones doing the actual work. The best we can do is help motivate others by giving well considered suggestions. For the time being, we need to work with first principles and ideal conductor forms. Copper would be great, but we’re nowhere near customizing wires; any attempt would be an animation.

My 2 cents. Semantically, technically - simulation is better than animation. Simulations attempt to identify all significant issues; animations sounds like someone’s imagination. Let’s be real, anything we simulate is an animation. My choice would be - model. Model has a – built the thing and worked out all the details - physical aspect that the other words do not. Which sounds best? A) Wire simulation application; B) Wire animation application; C) Wire model application.

I recommend we model Oersted’s Law. Just one wire, on or off, and its associated field; positive and negative currents. Next apply alternating currents, etc.  Once one wire is complete, adding additional wires should be as simple as adding their individual fields. Next, the charged field form of Faraday’s Law, and ultimately Maxwell’s Law. That would be a Tour De Force.
 
Lloyd wrote - Can the simulation help determine if the electrons around the wire are what manifests the magnetic field? Remember, there are said to be over  free electrons per mm of conductor.
Airman. Ideally, one works out the details before presenting them. 10^21 free electrons must be an estimation, it should be based on a volume, not surface area. I disagreed with the idea of emissions from only surface electrons earlier, saying photons are emitted from electrons distributed throughout the entire wire’s volume.

I believe that turning on the current must ionize some of the conductor’s atoms, but I cannot believe all the atoms are ionized. As current is increased, the number of internal channels are increased. This might explain the direct correlation between increased current and increased magnetic field. I don’t believe that explanation because the charge field current is passing through the entire volume, not the surface, and not sequentially adding internal charge channels either. My initial estimate of available free electrons would be less than the total number of copper atoms present. Ramping up current might increase the free electron count to 2x to the total number of copper atoms present. These are just guesses. We need to work out the interior details first, like calculating realistic numbers.  

Lloyd wrote - It's the electrons that magnetic field detectors measure; isn't it? The photons align and cause the electrons to align, causing the magnetic field. But instruments apparently don't detect the photons. Right?
Airman. I believe that's what Miles has indicated. If atoms could just realign in place, why would a compass needle turn? The force of all the individual atoms added together cause a single large atomic structure (the needle) to point directly to the wire.  
 
I’ve never investigated magnetometers before. What a lot of information.

https://web.archive.org/web/20070930141937/http://www.ctsystems.eu/gauss.htm
Magnetometer - the History
The magnetometer is an Instrument for measuring the strength and sometimes the direction of magnetic fields, including those on or near the Earth and in space. Magnetometers are also used to calibrate electromagnets and permanent magnets and to determine the magnetization of materials. Magnetometers specifically used to measure the Earth's field are of two types: absolute and relative (classed by their methods of calibration). Absolute magnetometers are calibrated with reference to their own known internal constants. Relative magnetometers must be calibrated by reference to a known, accurately measured magnetic field.
The simplest absolute magnetometer, devised by C.F. Gauss in 1832, consists of a permanent bar magnet suspended horizontally by a gold fiber. ...
The archive doc above ranges from Gauss to Tesla, a nice article.  

Another source.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetometer contains many modern magnetometers including
Optical Magnetometry
Optical magnetometry makes use of various optical techniques to measure magnetization. One such technique, Kerr Magnetometry makes use of the magneto-optic Kerr effect, or MOKE. In this technique, incident light is directed at the sample’s surface. Light interacts with a magnetized surface nonlinearly so the reflected light has an elliptical polarization, which is then measured by a detector.
Let me just say, I need to shut up, sit down and give the subject more attention.

Airman wrote:  I have experience in properly protecting metals such as underground pipes, support structures or electrical grounding systems against the cumulative corrosive effects of contact with the earth. High value infrastructure requires sacrificial anodes with battery currents ensuring that ion flow toward, rather than away from the structure you're trying to protect. Permanent dedicated circuits with many periodic tests.
Lloyd wrote - Are you looking forward to AI drones or robots taking over that monotonous testing work? Or would you like to ride along to supervise?
Airman. Ensuring good earth circuit ion flow is its own art. Yes, the work is boring, remote monitoring is best. Now that I have a basic charge field understanding cathodic protection makes more sense than ever.
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Re: Ideas for Applications and Animations

Post by Nevyn on Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:40 pm

I agree that it is best to create a simulator, but to do that I need the stacked spin collision equations. I may be able to create a simplified version of them that uses the top level spin to do the heavy lifting. Yes, it will only be an approximation but it will be closer than any other collision model. It might also help me to see how to include all of the internal spins. I am really struggling with that. Anyway, magnetism can be fairly closely approximated with just the top spin and it at least gets us something to work with.

One idea I have had, with respect to using all of the spins, is to calculate the BPhoton's position and then calculate its position after the current time interval and subtract one from the other to get the actual motion of the BPhoton during that time interval. I can even include the linear velocity in that to get the real motion. This is then used as the velocity for the force calculations.

I would also like to point out that there is nothing wrong with animations. Take Airman's diagrams above, it is much easier to see what is going on in those images than it is in the words to describe it. An animation does the same thing, but more in-depth. Animations are great for conveying ideas, but are not useful in definitively determining if those ideas are correct. Even a simulator is not really that definitive, either. It is still just a computer model. If the implementation is wrong, that doesn't tell you that the theory is wrong.

The way I see it is that a model is the theory or collection of theories. A simulator is an implementation of that model. An animation is a conceptual view of that model or part of it.
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Re: Ideas for Applications and Animations

Post by Cr6 on Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:03 pm

Nevyn wrote:I agree that it is best to create a simulator, but to do that I need the stacked spin collision equations. I may be able to create a simplified version of them that uses the top level spin to do the heavy lifting. Yes, it will only be an approximation but it will be closer than any other collision model. It might also help me to see how to include all of the internal spins. I am really struggling with that. Anyway, magnetism can be fairly closely approximated with just the top spin and it at least gets us something to work with.

One idea I have had, with respect to using all of the spins, is to calculate the BPhoton's position and then calculate its position after the current time interval and subtract one from the other to get the actual motion of the BPhoton during that time interval. I can even include the linear velocity in that to get the real motion. This is then used as the velocity for the force calculations.

I would also like to point out that there is nothing wrong with animations. Take Airman's diagrams above, it is much easier to see what is going on in those images than it is in the words to describe it. An animation does the same thing, but more in-depth. Animations are great for conveying ideas, but are not useful in definitively determining if those ideas are correct. Even a simulator is not really that definitive, either. It is still just a computer model. If the implementation is wrong, that doesn't tell you that the theory is wrong.

The way I see it is that a model is the theory or collection of theories. A simulator is an implementation of that model. An animation is a conceptual view of that model or part of it.

In my very humble opinion, I concur with Nevyn that creating a simulator is the best approach. Of course it can be a lot of extra work since it requires more than just an idea -- it must be engineered to handle inputs to mimic real world outputs.

I recommend we model Oersted’s Law
Yes...this is like laying a foundation for other properties to be built upon.

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Re: Ideas for Applications and Animations

Post by Nevyn on Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:26 pm

Yep. That is the main difference between a simulator and a good animation. They can actually show the same thing, and therefore give the viewer the same information, but the simulator can be changed easily to see what happens in different scenarios. If an animation is created in the right way then you can also change its parameters and kind of get something like a simulator. Jared and I have been discussing how to get his models into such a state. If I can supply easy to use tools, then he can build models very quickly. At least, that is the hope. We want to incorporate my math for stacked spins into something that his tools can use and that removes the need for Jared to create all of those spins directly. That saves time which will lead to easy to create models which leads to easy changes to those models when required.

Note: Since I just defined the term model above, I thought I should point out that I am not using that definition in this post. I am referring to the 3D models that Jared creates in Maya.
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Re: Ideas for Applications and Animations

Post by Nevyn on Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:37 am

This has been a great discussion and I hope it continues but I wanted to take a moment to discuss a path forward. I have held off starting this app until we had some clear ideas on how it all works. What I have realised throughout all of this, is that there are many different types of magnetism and I would like to create some apps to show as many as possible. I can see a whole new section on my site devoted to magnetism.

What I would like to figure out is a list of the different types of magnetism. From the photon to macro objects and beyond. That will let me build up as I go by implementing the simple ones and then building on top of them to create the complicated ones. We seem to have jumped into the middle somewhere. I originally envisaged a simpler system but we seem to have out-grown that pretty quickly. Which I thank you all for, but also curse you all (and myself) for making my life difficult. Very Happy Nah, I can't kid myself, I love it!

So, let me make a start on that list and you can add to it, question it, or forget about it, as you please.

In order of size, from smallest to largest:

Photons - a simple app showing the spin of the charge photon and how that effects a collision.
Particles - shows the magnetic component of charged particles and the neutron (not too sure about that at the moment).
Atoms - shows the charge channels of atoms and how the spin of that charge creates magnetism.
Molecules - extends the atoms app to show selected molecules and their charge channels. (low priority)
Electricity - may end up being quite a few apps, one of which we are already discussing.
Magnets - shows various types of magnets that we use every day.
Astronomical - shows the magnetism of planets, stars and galaxies.
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Electron Aligning Mechanism

Post by LongtimeAirman on Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:58 pm

.
Nevyn wrote. There are many different types of magnetism.

What? Huh? You said that before, but I didn’t think about it. Ok then, how does this sound?

Given the motion of a charge field of sufficient size, strength, and directionality, groups of any charged particle (B-photons of same or similar spin # and radius), with spin and freedom of motion, will tend to align their poles toward the charge field source, thereby maximizing reception of photons. That position results in a stable particle spin, with emission plane orthogonal to the charge current source.
   
I hope so, because the next questions are easy. How do photon impacts realign the charged particle? What is the actual mechanism involved?

I have an idea. Miles mentioned a ‘leading edge’ effect, where the Earth’s highest angular velocity, near the equator, meets the Sun’s own field head-to-head, where night meets day, the dawn line. These collisions between Earth’s dawn edge and Sun’s emitted field would seem to slow the planet’s spin. At the same time, on the other side of the planet, less energetic collisions (now head-to-tail) along the dusk edge seem to help support the earth’s orbit, with the sun helping to push Earth's spin.

Here’s how I see the idea might apply to smaller particles. The particle’s spin orientation can be resolved into components parallel or perpendicular to the charge field source. The charge field will oppose the particle spin component that is directed against the charge field. The force of the charge field is constant, the highest energy collisions will form a constant drag on the particle’s surface under this constant edge presssure. Equilibrium is reached when the particle achieves a stable spin, orthogonal to the current source. This mechanism seems to have the virtue of using precession correctly, positively or negatively.

I can also apply the mechanism to the magnetic field around the conductor. First, under normal operation the conductor’s molecular crystal arrangements are fixed in place. Yesterday I asked, if atoms could realign, why would the compass needle turn? Obviously the compass’ individual atoms do not realign, instead, they reorient as a single charged structure, the compass needle itself. So, I assume the atom alignments are fixed.

Why does the magnetic field increase linearly with increasing current? I now think that Cu within the conductor does not even need to ionize. If the conductor ionized under load the conductor may burn open. Instead, it seems the conductor’s main advantage is in its capacity to hold or conduct electron passage through the conductor’s molecular matrices. When de-energized, I believe these electrons remain within the conductor, reorienting themselves to the local atomic structure. While energized, the free electrons do move or realign, but they cannot re-orient entirely to the current source, since they must also orient to the local molecular structure. The more current applied, the more the electrons will favor aligning themselves to the charge field source.
 
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Reviewing Magnetism list. The list can include charged particles at any scale. You indicated smallest to largest then forgot that in the middle. Why no electron? Recommend you change “Electricity” to Electron, then place it on the smaller side of “Atoms”. Electricity should be subordinate to the Electron Category. I don’t understand why Magnets is on your particle list, even though I consider a compass needle a charged particle. Here’s the list with the Electron change included.

Photons - a simple app showing the spin of the charge photon and how that effects a collision.
Particles - shows the magnetic component of charged particles and the neutron (not too sure about that at the moment).
Electrons - may end up being quite a few apps, one of which we are already discussing.Atoms - shows the charge channels of atoms and how the spin of that charge creates magnetism.
Small atoms (no carousal)
Large atoms - shows the charge channels of atoms and how the spin of that charge creates magnetism.
Molecules - extends the atoms app to show selected molecules and their charge channels. (low priority)
Magnets - shows various types of magnets that we use every day.
Astronomical - shows the magnetism of planets, stars and galaxies.
.


Last edited by LongtimeAirman on Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:45 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added Sm and Lg Atoms to list)

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Re: Ideas for Applications and Animations

Post by Nevyn on Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:18 pm

Perhaps what I should have said is that there are many different ways to deliver magnetism and there are many different ways that it manifests. The resultant forces are not all the same and so we need to categories them and show how they operate. We have been discussing the magnetic field around a current carrying wire. That is a line based system. The wire provides the line and everything happens around it. That differs from the magnetism of a charge particle, which is spherical or maybe you could call in planar because it is emitted about the equator in a plane (or close to it).

The wire creates a field that envelopes that wire. The charged particle does not. There is nowhere around that wire, sufficiently close to it, that you won't feel the magnetic field but the magnetic field of a charged particle is only about the equator of that particle. You won't feel any magnetic effects at the poles of that particle. That is the main difference that led me to this line of thought.

Maybe it is easier to see the difference in the electric field, rather than the magnetic. All charge photons in the wire are moving in the same direction. All charge photons emitted from a charged particle are moving in different directions. The wire is a line but the particle is a plane emitted radially.

Then we can bring size into it. There isn't much difference between a charged particle and a planet or star, but there is a huge size difference and this changes the results of those fields. They operate in the same way but are not strictly equivalent because the size difference, between source entity and the charge photons, introduces a time lag and also inertia becomes more of an issue. I'm happy to just deal with the small entities for now.

Electrons were included in the Particles group. Electricity was looking at larger entities, like wires, and how they manifest a magnetic field. The groups aren't based on the entities that are involved in the magnetic field, but on the entities that emit the magnetic field.

I specified the Magnets group because there are many different kinds of magnets and it would be good to model as many as possible. There is a big difference between a bar magnet, a circular magnet and a horse shoe magnet.

A compass needle is not a charged particle. It is a complex collection of particles, some charged and some not. It is best described as a collection of atoms or molecules. Atoms mostly deliver magnetic fields that are similar but molecules do not. The shape of the molecule must be taken into consideration.

The needle aligns to the external magnetic field because of the interaction of its own magnetic field with the field of the wire or whatever it is. We don't need to bring the composition of that compass needle into it, other than to show how it generates its own magnetic field.

As I described earlier, the atoms can turn because as the current increases their own charge emission increases and this pushes against neighboring atoms. The atoms move apart which, given enough current, gives them enough room to turn. If the current keeps increasing, then the atoms really push each other apart and the solid starts acting like a fluid and will eventually melt. Given enough initial current, you can even vaporize the wire, skipping, or very quickly transitioning through, the fluid stage and going straight to gas.
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Re: Ideas for Applications and Animations

Post by LloydK on Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:01 am

Semantics
_N: The way I see it is that a model is the theory or collection of theories. A simulator is an implementation of that model. An animation is a conceptual view of that model or part of it.
_L: Sounds right. Simulations are based on detailed calculations. Animations are based on approximate generalized observations. Cartoons are animations.

Magnetic Photon Detection
_L: It's the electrons that magnetic field detectors measure; isn't it? The photons align and cause the electrons to align, causing the magnetic field. But instruments apparently don't detect the photons. Right?
_A: I believe that's what Miles has indicated. If atoms could just realign in place, why would a compass needle turn? The force of all the individual atoms added together cause a single large atomic structure (the needle) to point directly to the wire.
_L: I didn't think about compass needles, but it seems like they do sort of detect photons directly instead of electrons or ions.

Simulate A Compass Needle
Nevyn & Co, wouldn't that be pretty simple to do? In all of the simulations, will it be best to show both photons and antiphotons from the start? Or just show photons initially?

_A: When the current is switched on, the needle points perpendicularly away from the conductor, shown on top. Again, this agrees with our previous discussion, in the energized state, photons are being emitted perpendicularly away from the conductor.
_L: I think there has to be a field of electrons around current-carrying wires and it seems like photons would need to move mainly parallel along each wire in order to get those electrons to spin magnetically. Am I wrong? If someone can make a simple diagram of that, maybe I could understand the perpendicular compass needle.

_A: [earlier] I can also apply the mechanism to the magnetic field around the conductor. First, under normal operation the conductor’s molecular crystal arrangements are fixed in place. Yesterday I asked, if atoms could realign, why would the compass needle turn? Obviously the compass’ individual atoms do not realign, instead, they reorient as a single charged structure, the compass needle itself. So, I assume the atom alignments are fixed.
_L: That seems to be a logical conclusion. And it seems the same must apply to wires as well, unless there's a threshhold.

_A: [earlier]  The video surprised me. When the current is off, the needle mostly returns to a position parallel with the conductor, the bottom image. I don’t know the conventional explanation for that. It seems to me that if the current is off, the electron orientations return to their de-energized state; there is still a natural photon current along the outside of the conductor which the bottom compass needle aligns itself too to.
_L: I guess that's reasonable.

_A: Why does the magnetic field increase linearly with increasing current? I now think that Cu within the conductor does not even need to ionize. If the conductor ionized under load the conductor may burn open. Instead, it seems the conductor’s main advantage is in its capacity to hold or conduct electron passage through the conductor’s molecular matrices. When de-energized, I believe these electrons remain within the conductor, reorienting themselves to the local atomic structure. While energized, the free electrons do move or realign, but they cannot re-orient entirely to the current source, since they must also orient to the local molecular structure. The more current applied, the more the electrons will favor aligning themselves to the charge field source.
_L: I assume most of the free electrons are outside the wire. Those inside have supposedly been measured to move only mm's per second. Or maybe the measured speed included those outside too. I don't know.

_N: As I described earlier, the atoms can turn because as the current increases their own charge emission increases and this pushes against neighboring atoms. The atoms move apart which, given enough current, gives them enough room to turn. If the current keeps increasing, then the atoms really push each other apart and the solid starts acting like a fluid and will eventually melt. Given enough initial current, you can even vaporize the wire, skipping, or very quickly transitioning through, the fluid stage and going straight to gas.
_L: I suppose you're probably both right. The electrons align readily and the atoms align a little with enough current. Now, are you ready to simulate a compass needle in a magnetic field?

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Re: Ideas for Applications and Animations

Post by Nevyn on Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:42 am

Airman wrote:Why does the magnetic field increase linearly with increasing current?

Because it is caused by the same thing. Everything is caused by the charge photons so if you increase the density, then the effects from those photons will increase accordingly. This actually shows a very direct relationship. I am interested in the ratio of change in current to change in magnetic field. That could tell us something. If it is close to 1:1, then we can forget about electrons and atoms because that would mean it is the photons directly.

Magnetic field strength = (permeability of free space)(current) / (2Pi * distance)
B = uI/2Pir

We keep the distance, r, constant so we can take that out. Same with the permeability of free space, it is a constant so we remove it from the ratio. That leaves us with B = I/2Pi.

Isn't that interesting? The magnetic field is the current divided by 360°! We take the current and spread it out over a full circle. That sounds like a 1:1 relationship to me and I find that a bit disturbing. That means that the entire current is used in the magnetic field but we only want some of it. I feel like this equation isn't telling the complete story. There is something hidden in there or it is missing something. It tells me that the magnetic field strength is not the same thing as the current strength but it has been defined as such. Let's say 50% of the current is used in the magnetic field, leaving the other 50% for the electric field, then this equation wouldn't show that. It isn't meant to, but that is where we are looking.

However, if we go back to Miles paper on magnetism, he states that it is the spin of the current photons that cause the magnetic field, directly, and that would be inline with this equation because we aren't losing any charge photons to create the magnetic field but our discussion has them being emitted perpendicular to the current, and that means they are lost.
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