Lloyd - Let's discuss electron orbitals.

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Lloyd - Let's discuss electron orbitals.

Post by Cr6 on Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:14 pm


Let's discuss electron orbitals. < lkindr > 08/02 09:23

In this TB forum post, http://thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=14950&p=98220#p98204 , Airman quotes from my questions on this subject and submits a reply.

This image http://thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=3094 shows that magnesium atoms have 2 electrons in the K shell closest to the nucleus, 8 in the L shell, and 2 in the M shell.

I had asked: "Can yous explain how the energy levels of each shell was determined? And can yous explain how MM explains those energy levels?"

Airman replied: "The ionization energy is the amount of energy it takes to remove electrons from the various elements. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionization_energy . Generally speaking, it takes greater energy to remove those electrons “closer” to the nucleus.

I still would like to know how the energy levels were measured. I'd also like to see if the energy levels match MM's atomic structures, such as that of magnesium. And I'd like to know how the electrons are removed. I assume it's by photon bombardment somehow and I'd like to see the details of that.


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Initial energy

Post by Cr6 on Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:15 pm


Initial energy < Cr-6 > 08/02 12:01

Hi lkindr,

Sorry to just dump quotes from Mathis left and right without a lot of summary. I just find it is easier to point to the location across his papers where he conceptualizes this:

-------
PERIOD FOUR of the Periodic Table
milesmathis.com/updates/per4.pdf

This short math I have done above now tells us why elements ionize before bonding. We have just seen that Chromium can create a bond over 20% stronger by kicking that electron out of the eddy. But of course it is not a choice of the element to ionize itself. What causes ionization before bonding is the other element nearby. When the two charge streams meet, the second charge stream blows that electron out of the hole before bonding. It is not a choice, it is a natural outcome of bonding. When we are manufacturing these bonds, we can blow the electron out of that hole by other means—as when we introduce external charge via an electrical current or magnetic field. This sort of forced ionization then makes it easier for us to introduce the second element into the molecule, you see.


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Thanks, Cr6

Post by Cr6 on Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:16 pm


Thanks, Cr6 < lkindr > 08/02 16:16

I said:
_L1: I still would like to know how the energy levels were measured.
_L2: I'd also like to see if the energy levels match MM's atomic structures, such as that of magnesium.
_L3: And I'd like to know how the electrons are removed.
_L4: I assume it's by photon bombardment somehow and I'd like to see the details of that.

Your quote of MM said:
_C3,C4: What causes ionization before bonding is the other element nearby. When the two charge streams meet, the second charge stream blows that electron out of the hole before bonding.

That's a good start for answering L3 and L4. But I'd like to know more details. Wouldn't you? The electrons are putting out just as much charge as the protons. Which way do the electron axes align? Parallel to the proton axes? Or perpendicular to them? Or what?

Since electrons are much smaller than protons, what kind of charge do they put out? Do they emit much smaller photons than do protons?

Where do the electrons go when they're knocked out of proton axis eddies? If the atoms form a molecule, the electrons must remain somewhere within it. Otherwise, it would be an ion, not a molecule.

What orientations do the atoms have when their charge streams knock electrons out of proton axis eddies?

Would it explain all atomic bonding? Or just ionic? Or just covalent?

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Re: Lloyd - Let's discuss electron orbitals.

Post by Cr6 on Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:16 pm


Those are the key questions < Cr-6 > 08/03 12:15

Yeah, I think Mathis himself is probably wrestling with these structures, object strikes, and charge flows between atoms-molecules himself IMHO. He wants to provide a framework that works mathematically and logically but is still flexible enough to account for new observations. Once one goes beyond something very basic, the model must channel charge and exhibit properties observed during experiments. I kind of try to limit my focus these days to high-temp Superconductors only because this is a major driver for traditional QED but I think at some point Mathis, or someone following his theories, will allow an end-run around the entire thing a provide a novel structure and experiment that just works because the charge-field/EM is aligned properly.

As for the Magnesium question:

-Cr6-1: Not sure. Classical measures of electron potentials (eV)?
_Cr6-2:
For magnesium:
Atomic Number
12
Protons
12

SlotNumbers (based on Ne - base 2
1 - 2 blue
2 - 2
3 - 2
4 - 2
5 - 2
-- 10 for inner box
14 - 1 black
15 - 1
-- 2 on ends of box -- hence it should channel and be ready to join with other 1-black ends
like Oxgyen-Carbon-etc. Carbon 6 = 1(4),4(1),5(1) single-blacks and Oxygen 8 = 1(6),14(1),15(1)

_Cr6-3:
the Period 6 - Hafnium paper has few hints. Looks like Odd numbers are valence:
Its low density requires the single protons in the inner levels, and its similarity to Zirconium is indicated by the square configuration, with the same color disks in the four outer positions N, S, E and W. Since the lavender disks represent three protons, two of them will protect one another's accompanying electrons; but the electron with the third proton will be unprotected, and will become a so-called valence electron, prime for ionization. This is why both Hafnium and Zirconium commonly have an oxidation state of +4.

_Cr6-4:
Related to all of this, Mathis points to photons becoming electrons. I think of electrons as the "vise" for looping the Charge Field flow through the atomic structure. I don't think they really "orbit" giving charge across a field. I think of atoms and molecules more like lattices-crystals that let "light" flow through them in very unique ways.

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Re: Lloyd - Let's discuss electron orbitals.

Post by Cr6 on Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:17 pm

How Ionization Energies Are Measured < lkindr > 08/05 20:27

--- -C1: "Carbon 6 = 1(4),4(1),5(1) single-blacks and Oxygen 8 = 1(6),14(1),15(1)"
Cr6, what do the numbers 1, 4, 5 mean for Carbon and what do 1, 14, 15 mean for Oxygen? It's apparent that the numbers in parentheses refer to the number of electrons for each element. Do the other numbers refer to ionization energies for different shells? Or what?

Can someone look up MM's models for carbon and oxygen and post a link to the models, so we can look for where the outer and core electrons would be?

--- First Ionisation Energy
This site http://www.chemguide.co.uk/atoms/properties/ies.html defines first ionisation energy as the energy required to remove the most loosely held electron from one mole of gaseous atoms to produce 1 mole of gaseous ions each with a charge of 1+.

It shows the first ionization energies for the first 20 elements here: http://www.chemguide.co.uk/atoms/properties/ieshtoca.GIF

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How Ionization Energies Are Measured

Post by Cr6 on Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:17 pm

How Ionization Energies Are Measured < lkindr > 08/05 20:27

--- -C1: "Carbon 6 = 1(4),4(1),5(1) single-blacks and Oxygen 8 = 1(6),14(1),15(1)"
Cr6, what do the numbers 1, 4, 5 mean for Carbon and what do 1, 14, 15 mean for Oxygen? It's apparent that the numbers in parentheses refer to the number of electrons for each element. Do the other numbers refer to ionization energies for different shells? Or what?

Can someone look up MM's models for carbon and oxygen and post a link to the models, so we can look for where the outer and core electrons would be?

--- First Ionisation Energy
This site http://www.chemguide.co.uk/atoms/properties/ies.html defines first ionisation energy as the energy required to remove the most loosely held electron from one mole of gaseous atoms to produce 1 mole of gaseous ions each with a charge of 1+.

It shows the first ionization energies for the first 20 elements here: http://www.chemguide.co.uk/atoms/properties/ieshtoca.GIF


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Re: Lloyd - Let's discuss electron orbitals.

Post by Cr6 on Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:17 pm

How IE is Measured [more] < lkindr > 08/05 20:37

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/293063/ionization-energy
The ionization energy of a chemical element, expressed in joules (or electron volts), is usually measured in an electric discharge tube in which a fast-moving electron generated by an electric current collides with a gaseous atom of the element, causing it to eject one of its electrons.


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Re: Lloyd - Let's discuss electron orbitals.

Post by Cr6 on Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:18 pm


Orbitals Measured in 2011?
< lkindr > 08/05 20:28

--- Scientists Measure Electron Orbitals for the First Time [see image link in last paragraph]
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2392016,00.asp
By Peter Pachal
August 29, 2011 12:17pm EST

A team of researchers have modified a special microscope to probe atoms at the quantum level. [] While it's impossible to snap a photo of an electron in the strictest sense (the wavelength of visible light is much too large for direct measurement), scientists have done the next best thing. By modifying a piece of equipment called a scanning tunneling microscope, a team of researchers from IBM Research Zurich were able to produce the first-ever images of electrons in their orbitals, according to study in Nature reported by Science magazine.

A scanning tunneling microscope has a tiny finger that's only a few atoms wide at the tip. While able to probe the density of electrons in whatever it's scanning, it typically doesn't have the resolution to see those electron orbitals in detail. But by using a special molecule (carbon monoxide) on the scanning tip and insulating the substance being scanned with a layer of salt, the scientists were able to boost the sensitivity of the microscope, and scan electron orbitals for the first time.

Although electrons are often thought of as particles rapidly spinning around a nucleus, the truth, as described by quantum mechanics, is much different. An electron is said to be simultaneously in every point in space and in none, more accurately represented by a probability "cloud" that shows where it's likely to be rather than where it is.

The images bear that signature (see the pattern at right—the measured images are in the top row with the predicted patterns below: http://www2.pcmag.com/media/images/315508-electron-orbitals.jpg?thumb=y ). Scanning samples of the organic molecules pentacene and naphthalocyanine, the research team found the same pattern that quantum models predict for the same molecules, with the orbitals resembling smeared clouds in a regular pattern, separated by gaps (where the probability of an electron being present is very low).

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Re: Lloyd - Let's discuss electron orbitals.

Post by Cr6 on Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:18 pm


Splitting the Electron -- shows magnesium < Cr-6 > 08/03 20:40

From the www.milesmathis.com/updates/cu.pdf

-------------

Blue disks are double protons (or alphas) and black disks are single protons. In my simplest diagrams I leave the neutrons out of it, as I will do here. Magnesium has only two easy bonding spots top and bottom, and tends to be linear in the simplest bonds. But Copper can bond top or at either of the two carousel openings. In other words, Copper can accept protons at any of the three outer black positions. Since a blue disk can take two protons, those black positions have an open hole. If you have not studied my nuclear diagrams before this, you will have to read my nuclear.pdf paper to understand my simple method of construction.

...

You will say, “That is charge, but what you are plugging into these positions is protons, not charge.” But all charged particles follow charge. That is what “charged particle” means. Protons, like electrons, are physically pushed by the charge wind. They go where charge pushes them, because charge pushes them. Both their linear motions and spins come straight from charge. Spinning photons cause charged particles to spin, and moving photons cause charged particles to move. If we go back to Argon, without the top and bottom protons, we find charge whistling through the axial level of that nucleus. It also gets partially diverted by pull from the carousel level, and much charge is channeled that way, too. But the main line is axial. So when the ambient charge field passes Argon, it gets channeled first through the axial level. And if free protons are available (as in stars), as well as pressure to force a tight and permanent fit, the protons will follow the pre-existing charge channels and go to the axial level as well. That is how we build Calcium and other period 4 elements from Argon.


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Re: Lloyd - Let's discuss electron orbitals.

Post by Cr6 on Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:20 pm


How the Elements are Built < Cr-6 > 08/03 21:03

Mathis is now stuffing photon/anti-photon into proton holes. The electron is orbiting the proton hole. Mathis needs a 3D artist to show all of the motions concurrently.

-------

Before we move on to the next section, I will answer a quick question. I have put most of the electrons inside the alphas so far, but in my diagram of Molybdenum, we see that we have six protons existing singly in outer holes. Where are their electrons? Once again, the electrons aren't orbiting the nucleus, and they aren't orbiting the proton, either. What the electron is orbiting here is the hole in the proton. Due to its spin, the proton has a charge minimum at both poles. One “hole” tends to attract photons, and the other tends to attract anti-photons. These charge photons are recycled by the proton, and are re-emitted at its equator. The proton, like the nucleus, is a charge-field fan-engine. Now, since I have shown (previously) that the electron is basically an overgrown photon, it is attracted to this charge minimum just like the photon, and for the same reason. But it is too big to go through the hole. So it simply circles the hole, like a ping pong ball too big to go down the drain. This gives the electron two separable angular momenta—one being its own spin about its center and the other being its spin about the hole—but neither momentum applies to a nuclear orbit. The electron is not going round the nucleus at all, as you now understand.


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Re: Lloyd - Let's discuss electron orbitals.

Post by Cr6 on Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:20 pm

Get a 3D Artist < lkindr > 08/03 22:00

Cr6 said: "Mathis is now stuffing photon/anti-photon into proton holes. The electron is orbiting the proton hole. Mathis needs a 3D artist to show all of the motions concurrently."

Steven Smith might be able to do a good simulation to some extent. I'll see if I can contact him again soon. Maybe he'll come join the discussion here too.

When Mathis says the electron orbits the proton hole, he obviously means it orbits the proton's axis above the hole, which axis goes through the hole.

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Airman's Reply

Post by Cr6 on Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:21 pm


Airman's Reply < lkindr > 08/03 11:01

I think the ionization energies are determined through experiments as described in:

NEW PAPER, 4/12/2014. Robert Hofstadter and Nuclear Bombardment. http://milesmathis.com/hof.pdf A re-analysis of three of Hofstadter's important papers from the 1950's. I show my nuclear model matches the data much better than the old models.

I point to Miles not to be cute, but because he has begun to address the capabilities and limitations of various test equipment and their use. Think Michaelson-Morley.

I do want some civil discussions and have many questions of my own.

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Re: Lloyd - Let's discuss electron orbitals.

Post by Cr6 on Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:21 pm

Electron Energy Levels? < lkindr > 08/03 18:52

That paper doesn't say anything about the electron orbitals and their energy levels, does it? And it doesn't seem to explain how the orbitals and energy levels are obtained conventionally. Or can you quote Mathis on these matters?

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Airman's 2nd Reply

Post by Cr6 on Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:22 pm

Airman's 2nd Reply < lkindr > 08/03 21:27

I thought hof.pdf was a good answer. Nuclear bombardment with electrons, along with caveats in interpreting data.
How about this?
Background Reading for Ionization Energy:
http://www.shodor.org/chemviz/ionization/students/background.html
You wouldn't happen to look like Basil Rathbone, would you?


More from Airman's 2nd Reply < lkindr > 08/03 21:38

[Calculation of Ionization Energies]

"The first of two main methods which scientists use to calculate the ionization energy is the Subtraction Method. This method entails some experimentation. You must first find the energy value of the ion you are looking for. Then subtract the energy value of the neutral atom. This difference is the ionization energy for that ion."

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Re: Lloyd - Let's discuss electron orbitals.

Post by Cr6 on Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:23 pm


Ionization Energy < lkindr > 08/03 21:49

Since Rathbone died in 1967, his body must look like a skeleton. Otherwise, I probably don't resemble the earlier Rathbone either.

"You must first find the energy value of the ion you are looking for. Then subtract the energy value of the neutral atom. This difference is the ionization energy for that ion."

That seems to be getting close to a final answer to one of the questions or something related. Now I'm wondering how the energy value of an ion and of a neutral atom are determined.

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Re: Lloyd - Let's discuss electron orbitals.

Post by Cr6 on Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:23 pm


Ionization Energy < lkindr > 08/03 21:49

Since Rathbone died in 1967, his body must look like a skeleton. Otherwise, I probably don't resemble the earlier Rathbone either.

"You must first find the energy value of the ion you are looking for. Then subtract the energy value of the neutral atom. This difference is the ionization energy for that ion."

That seems to be getting close to a final answer to one of the questions or something related. Now I'm wondering how the energy value of an ion and of a neutral atom are determined.

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Re: Lloyd - Let's discuss electron orbitals.

Post by Cr6 on Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:24 pm

That Mathis Periodic Table < Cr-6 > 08/05 20:10

I don't know if you were able to download it as an Excel file? It had the percentage of 1st Ionization potential for each atom. Apparently Mathis uses this to determine classical bonding properties.

It was on the TB MM thread
< Cr-6 > 08/06 18:16

I'm 100% sure this still works from back in June. I've updated a few things since then:

www.mediafire.com/view/nbprihugd5d5whb/PeriodicTable_alpha_v004.xlsx


Cr-6, Got it. Great job! Now if I could just understand it. 47M! Did you make a manual for it yet? How do you describe it?

Glad you could get it. I built it for reference
< Cr-6 > 08/08 20:53

Hi LTAM,

I built it for my own reference. I have filters already applied that can be undone to see everything.

I tried to focus on the Percentage of 1st Ionization since this indicated how elements "bind" according to Mathis. I used his 1-18 positions to bind his proton-electron holes to the current elements-molecules.

It is not entirely complete. I also have the NIST values to refence.

I'm going to add Lloyds lookup calcs to it in the future.

---


I don't do Google Docs. I don't trust them.

Here's another quicker download. Click the Orange "Download" button.

http:// www50.zippyshare.com/v/27127747/file.html

This file can be opened with OpenOffice or with Microsoft's Excel Reader.

Microsoft's Excel Viewer is here:

http:// www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=10

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