Proposal: Electricity Animation

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Re: Proposal: Electricity Animation

Post by LongtimeAirman on Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:02 pm

LongtimeAirman wrote: The larger discussion seems to be mostly about resonance, power transmission, or wires. In the same continuum, consider wireless communication. We can create a radio station at almost any frequency (local rules may apply!). The coil has been replaced with an oscillator and tuner. Many stations will occupy contiguous frequencies and locations in order to fill the local available RF bandwidth. Station frequency separations are roughly based on the human hearing range of 200-20kHz and a small additional margin. Antenna elements are designed for optimum performance across the RF frequency bands. Signal intelligence – a 20kHz (again, human hearing range) bandwidth signal of music, or communications - is used to vary, or modulate the carrier (station) frequency. The combined signal is transmitted into space.

Nevyn wrote: The coil hasn't really been replaced in a radio circuit, most of the circuits I have seen use one but it is usually a small inductor. The antenna runs down into an inductor that then runs into ground. The circuit connects to either side of the inductor in order to watch the voltage difference over it. That voltage, which will match the signal on the antenna, is fed into some circuit which could just be an amplifier but most modern radio circuits have some special circuitry for various purposes. As an example, the transmitter will usually emphasize the high frequencies so the receiver has to de-emphasize them. The inductor can be made variable so that you can tune the radio into a station. You can also use a variable capacitor (that connects across the inductor) to tune it.

But I have seen radio circuits that do not use any inductor. They probably work because we can build very fast transistors these days.
The coil has been replaced with an oscillator and tuner.


Airman answers: Correct, the coil is usually still there. The coil’s tuner allows us to physically move an electrical contact pick-up point – effectively changing the coil’s length.

Of course we can get rid of the coil, and just use straight conductors. They keep coming up in this discussion too. The straight conductor’s length usually corresponds to a quarter, half, or single wavelength of a resonant base frequency. A tuner for which may be, again, a sliding contact pick-up point. The wire can also see harmonics and all the higher frequencies present. Energizing (or giving the wire a higher voltage) such a wire may help maximize the performance of that frequency in that system and so help differentiate it from other interfering frequencies.

A big drawback of straight conductors is the fact that the conductor’s orientation greatly affects how it interacts with various signal sources and the local em environment; the straight conductor receives and reflects energy sources better when they are oriented perpendicular to the conductor’s long axis. A configuration of straight lengths becomes optimum for receiving distant em sources – think of all the old television aerials, some are still up.  Coils are far more convenient than large straight conductors, and omnidirectional too, I suppose.

I once thought one could simply roll up straight wire into a coil and still maintain the same resonant frequency. I’m sure coil manufacturers have mastered the subject without any over reliance on math.  Now that Miles has eliminated kinematic pi, is it possible to turn a length of conductor into a coil (of x loops) at the same resonant frequency?
...
LongtimeAirman wrote:
I’m beginning to think that tuning in a radio to a local radio source may well create a direct physical photon link – a charge channel - between the transmitter station and my radio. The photons must exist in my tuner/oscillator long enough to transfer the differential envelope into the signal range I can hear.


Nevyn wrote: There is no need for a direct physical link and evidence of that is radio transmission through space. It isn't really space but the distances involved. It takes time for that signal to reach the receivers on earth and a physical link would require the transmitter be on, and transmitting, for the entire duration which is not actually required (or very practical). The transmitter sends out a burst and then goes about its day. That burst of energy eventually reaches some receiver and is interpreted.

So in a way, there is a physical link, there always is, but the link is not necessarily at the same time in both transmitter and receiver. It is very much like throwing and catching a ball. The thrower (transmitter) can throw the ball (signal) and then forget about it, have a drink, watch a movie, take out the trash. The catcher (receiver) doesn't need to care about the thrower or the ball until the ball is coming straight at it and only in the final instant does the catcher need to think about it. In the case of a radio receiver, the antenna is always listening but the receiver may not be watching it (power is turned off).


Airman answers: A receiver should ‘listen’ only between transmissions. This is especially true with radar, as you don’t want to deliver very high output power back into very sensitive receivers. The antenna should be a passive device, resonating in response to a distant echo/reflection, or while in transmit mode. In receive mode, the antenna may be called neutral mater; in transmit mode the antenna is energized with high voltage and it is radiating – no longer neutral matter. While not transmitting, the station may be in receive mode.

The charge channel is a direct physical link, comprised of two emission sources and photons. As you point out, there are delays between emission from one charged object to reception by the other charged object – the photon’s time aloft between charged matter at light speed. By definition, any and all “physical contact” between large aggregates of charged matter consists of large numbers of independent charge channels, each of which includes these time delays. The only other direct physical contact I can think of is when the emission fields of protons cannot prevent contact between those protons - as I would expect in a stellar furnace.
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Re: Proposal: Electricity Animation

Post by LongtimeAirman on Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:17 pm

Examples of Amplitude and Frequency modulation taken from Wiki.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_modulation#/media/File:Amfm3-en-de.gif


AM, Amplitude Modulation. The transmitted signal strength is a function of signal amplitude.
FM, Frequency Modulation. The transmitted signal frequency varies as a function of signal amplitude.
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Re: Proposal: Electricity Animation

Post by Nevyn on Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:33 pm

When I read "direct physical link" I assumed a temporal connection as well, that's what I thought the "direct" part implied. The more I study Miles work the more the word "physical" loses a lot of its meaning. Not its true definition but in comparison to words like "electricity" or "magnetism". The word "physical" has been used to mean mechanical and the terms "electrical" or "magnetic" have been used to mean non-mechanical. But we all know better. Everything is mechanical. Everything is physical. It is just people that choose to see it or ignore it.

I was also thinking or a pure transmitter and receiver, not a mixed device like a CB radio which, strictly speaking, only ever works as one or the other at any given time. When I said that the antenna was always listening, I meant it is always receiving the photons or ions or whatever makes the signal.

Does radar use the same antenna for transmission and receiving? I would have thought that a special antenna design would be required for the high power transmission and a different design for the low power reception but I really don't know a lot about radar at that level. I guess you've worked on a lot of that type of stuff. You must have played with some pretty cool toys.
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Re: Proposal: Electricity Animation

Post by Nevyn on Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:43 pm

Hmm, neither of those signal images match my description but I have definitely seen it drawn the way I described it. AM has 1 wave which is changing in amplitude and FM has one wave that is changing in frequency. Thanks for showing me that I had incorrectly called what I described FM.

This is what I was describing:
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Re: Proposal: Electricity Animation

Post by Nevyn on Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:10 pm

LloydK wrote:
Nevyn said: I don't know enough about Logo to say what it will or won't be good for but I keep thinking that custom programming is the way to go for the foreseeable future.
Actually, I believe Logo is famous for custom programming (I'm a rank amateur, so my beliefs aren't necessarily very accurate). Each user can write procedures and then run them in a program etc. For example, I can define a procedure as: to mozy repeat random 999 forward random 5 left random 360 ... then I can say ... {do something and then} mozy {and do something else, then} mozy etc. Here I spelled out all of the commands, whereas earlier I used abbreviations; forward is fd; left is lt; etc. Procedures can include other procedures too. The potential with 3D seems amazing to me.

You guys have said a lot of interesting things. I'll try to comment later.

I can see that Logo is a language itself but it is still a targeted language. It has a definite goal it is trying to provide. With more general programming languages you have access to other things so if I wanted to load my data from a database, then I can do that easily. If I then want to load it from a web server, I can do that too. If I want to save it as an image or a spreadsheet or send it to a server, I can do that. If I want some fancy user interface control to handle some specific data, I can write that but if you are stuck behind someone else's language, you are at their mercy as to what they want to, or can, support.

Of course the up-side to a specific language is that it does most of what you want to do quickly and easily (at least, it should or you should look for another language). You can get up and running in a short amount of time. That's why I said that I was interested to see what others can do with these tools which can take me in two directions: I can try to do what they have done myself, or find a new way to do it; or I can see the power of the tool and dive deeper in. It generally comes down to thinking "I'm comfortable in what I already know and can get things working pretty quickly" verses "This all looks foreign to me and I can't see how to do basic things".

I did have a little bitch about R being ugly but there is a reason for that ugliness. Like Unix, the commands are designed to be used on a command line where you don't want long descriptive commands, you want quick and easy to type commands. This is the main reason Unix admins are paid so well. They know most of the commands and how to use them effectively. It let's you work quickly since it is a lot faster to type "rm" than it is to type "remove" but anyone with no knowledge of the commands can see "remove" and know, roughly, what it is going to do, no so much with "rm".

At the end of the day, what matters is that you can do what you want to do. I might do it a different way in a different tool or language but that doesn't really matter. Focus on the concepts you are trying to show and the tools don't really matter so much.
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Re: Proposal: Electricity Animation

Post by LloydK on Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:26 pm

Nevyn said yesterday: Maybe protons don't actually flow through the circuit. Photons certainly do (which I see as voltage) and electrons do (which I see as current) but maybe the protons stay in the power source but act as electron donors (or even generators but that's for another analysis). The live wire may get hotter because it is handling many more electrons than the neutral wire. I'm not sure, there is plenty of room for thought in this area. ... Protons seem too big for any of this.
Well, MM's Battery Circuit paper said the wires of a battery act as extensions of the battery, and the battery has positive charge on one side and negative on the other. MM also said the photons spread out like fans at the light bulb and, because there are two of them, the photons are made coherent as a certain frequency or pattern. I guess it makes sense that the hot wire pushes many more electrons than does the neutral. But does that mean that the hot and neutral photon fans make the photon pattern for the bulb? If so, what sort of pattern do you think would be causing the glow of the filament? Would it be from IR photons? Or from friction of electron flow? Or is friction the same as IR photons?

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Re: Proposal: Electricity Animation

Post by LloydK on Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:57 pm

Hey, folks, Success! I got an MM photon x-spin, similar to the one linked in one of MM's papers. Go to http://www.logointerpreter.com/turtle-editor.php
and enter these commands:

cs ht for [i 0 500 1]
[setx :i - 250 setpencolor "red seth :i
pu fd 44 pd arc 360 22 wait 111
setpencolor "white arc 360 22 pu bk 44]

Below the commands textbox on the left, there's a blue arrow, which runs the commands slowly, then there's a speed bar, then to the right of the speedbar is a rocket, which runs the commands fast. Click on the rocket.

I think I made the photon radius half of what it should be. I set it at 22, but I think it should be 44. The photon is a dark red circle, which leaves behind a pink trail. The next challenge is to add a y-spin. I don't know if 2D will handle that, but I'll try.

Here are the commands spelled out, which I haven't tried to run:
clearscreen hideturtle for [i 0 500 1]
[setx :i - 250 setpencolor "red setheading :i
penup forward 44 pendown arc 360 22 wait 111
setpencolor "white arc 360 22 penup back 44]

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Re: Proposal: Electricity Animation

Post by Nevyn on Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:10 am

That's pretty good, Lloyd. I can see a photon spinning about the X axis while moving along the X axis (left to right of screen). Adding in a Y spin is going to be tricky. Two spins means 3 dimensions of movement. Good luck.
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Re: Proposal: Electricity Animation

Post by Ciaolo on Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:12 pm

I changed the radius to 44 and I can see some elusive similarities with a cycloid... Anyone knows why? (Sorry if this is an obvious question)

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Re: Proposal: Electricity Animation

Post by LloydK on Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:17 pm

Yes, it's a cycloid because the circle is formed first on top of the x-axis, then, while the lateral movement continues to the right, the angle is gradually changed clockwise till it finally forms under the x-axis at 180 degrees. Then it comes back up to the top, completing a cycle (and then some).

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Re: Proposal: Electricity Animation

Post by LloydK on Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:51 pm

I just posted links and images from 3 other photon/atom models in the Images thread at http://milesmathis.the-talk.net/t215-images-of-photons-atoms-etc#1426 because they all have considerable similarities to MM's model, despite differences too. I think they're all worth checking out.

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Re: Proposal: Electricity Animation

Post by Nevyn on Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:19 pm

Ciaolo wrote:I changed the radius to 44 and I can see some elusive similarities with a cycloid... Anyone knows why? (Sorry if this is an obvious question)

I noticed that too and thought it was a problem and even had half a post typed out about it. Before I got too far into it, I thought I would check my SpinSim to see how it looked and it can have a similar effect, even though you can see in the other viewpoints that it is a nice clean spiral. I think your animation is a little different though since you are not working in 3D. You might need to rework your math.

Here is a link to SpinSim with just an X spin and a linear velocity in the X direction as well. I have set the velocity to 5%c to accentuate the problem. Look at the lower left viewpoint and as it starts to move off screen, you can see the same problem. However, in my case, that is a result of perspective because you are looking slightly sideways at it rather than direct on like in your animation. That's why the right side of my wave does not show the problem but the left side does.

Here is the full URL as you need to login to use links in a post: http://www.nevyns-lab.com/mathis/app/SpinSimulator/app.html?particle=cube&set1=on&set1_levels=f,t,f,f&set2=off&set3=off&velocity=5&rec=1&for=30000

I changed the script to use a particle of size 44 and it did look closer to what it should (there should be 1 edge of the particle that keeps a straight line across the page) but it also made it harder to see what was going on.
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Re: Proposal: Electricity Animation

Post by Jared Magneson on Tue Oct 11, 2016 3:01 pm

I can animate electricity and magnetism in Maya, but I can't post it for 7 days as I'm new here.

Google "Vimeo dragon face alpha charge" and you should find my videos. I've done a few on Mathisian theories, and will post new thread topics on some of them in a week.

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Re: Proposal: Electricity Animation

Post by LloydK on Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:55 pm

Hi Jared. Those are rather interesting videos you posted. Looks like you all are making good progress with MM's theory. It should be exciting to see what yous come up with to animate or simulate a battery circuit or a wireless setup etc. Michael Vacaitis's initial paper on gyroscopic motion seems to hold the most promise for explaining how stacked spins can work, even though he seemed to discard his own theory later.

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Re: Proposal: Electricity Animation

Post by Jared Magneson on Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:28 am

I can't post links yet but I just uploaded a new video on stacked spins, which should help illustrate frequency and wavelength. Again, just Google "Vimeo photon stacked spins" and pick Dragon Face, and my newest video will be first on the list.

I think I can demonstrate electricity and magnetism in a similar way. I'll approach electricity first, since it's easier to visualize throughput (for me) than it is to visualize magnetic "cogs" clicking between particles.

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Re: Proposal: Electricity Animation

Post by LongtimeAirman on Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:45 pm

.
Hello Jared, Welcome. Nice videos. I hope we can discuss them.
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Re: Proposal: Electricity Animation

Post by Jared Magneson on Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:52 pm

I ran that latest one by Miles and he pointed out that my second spin is NOT orthogonal to the first. So I'm working on a new setup to make things work. I believe a particle is just far more likely to stack a spin at an orthogonal due to the already-spinning particle having a lot more tangential velocity along its magnetic axis, just as we see in the other, larger particles.

Is this part of why gyroscopes work the way they do? Not because of some weird spin magic, but because it's just far easier TO spin along that orthogonal than not?

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Re: Proposal: Electricity Animation

Post by Nevyn on Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:20 am

Hi Jared and welcome to the forum. So nice of you to come bearing gifts, too. I'm really glad to see more promotion of Miles' work. I do have some questions and observations though.

https://vimeo.com/133918273

Can you tell me the coordinate system that is being used, please? That is, what directions are the X, Y and Z dimensions? The Axial and X spins seems to be rotating about the up dimension, which is usually called Y in 3D graphics systems.

The blue spheres seem to be placed correctly if the closest one to the particle is X, the one above the particle is Y and the one to the left is Z, but the rotations don't go around these axes. Instead, they create motion in the dimension of the axis that they are supposed to rotate around. When a particle rotates around an axis, let's say the X axis, then it has motion in the Y and Z dimensions but not in the X.

Why does the Axial spin cause a wobble? It shouldn't do that.

Have you implemented any rotational speed difference as the spins get larger? That is, it takes more time for the Y spin to make a complete revolution than it does the X spin. The Z spin rotates slower than the Y spin. This is caused by the circumference getting larger with each new spin level (because of the doubling radius). Every spin level has a tangential velocity of c but they have different distances to travel so the angle of rotation per unit time (or per frame) becomes smaller as the radius gets larger.

We can run through the math if you want, but the end result is that each added spin level rotates square root of 2 slower than the previous spin level. To put it another way, each spin level rotates 1/sqrt(2) times by the rate of its inner spin level.

Good luck improving your model. I look forward to seeing the results.
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Re: Proposal: Electricity Animation

Post by Jared Magneson on Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:43 am

Thank you for your input, Nevyn! I do really need to adjust my model to account for these factors. Thanks for pointing out the increasing rotational times, I hadn't even thought of that. These errors on my part surely account for that "wobble" and other oddities.

I'm using Maya, which is very obnoxiously complex but of course very powerful. I normally just use it for art and for work (architectural design), so this is kind of a new area for me. Learning animation as well as the physics involved, so please bear with me and don't hesitate to point out these kinds of mistakes!

I'll have the revised video posted up when I can get to it.

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Re: Proposal: Electricity Animation

Post by Nevyn on Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:24 pm

No worries, Jared. I'm glad you took it as the constructive criticism it was intended to be.

Jared Magneson wrote:Thanks for pointing out the increasing rotational times, I hadn't even thought of that.

It took me a while to realise it too. Even once I knew that they should spin slower, I couldn't figure out the correct speed relationship but I eventually found it.

Jared Magneson wrote:These errors on my part surely account for that "wobble" and other oddities.

I'm not sure about that wobble and why it would happen, unless the particle is not positioned at 0, 0, 0 or the axis of rotation is not aligned with the center of the particle (which would be easier if it was positioned at 0, 0, 0). But you've got a good model and it shouldn't take much to fix these issues and make it even better.

Jared Magneson wrote:I'm using Maya, which is very obnoxiously complex but of course very powerful. I normally just use it for art and for work (architectural design), so this is kind of a new area for me. Learning animation as well as the physics involved, so please bear with me and don't hesitate to point out these kinds of mistakes!

I come from the other side. I can write the software but struggle with the art, and the words but that's another story. I recently tried to touch up some models in Blender and I managed to reduce the complexity of the model but I'd be lost trying to build something from scratch.
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Re: Proposal: Electricity Animation

Post by Jared Magneson on Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:50 pm

I come from a heavy 3D art/architecture background, been in it since 1998 and using Maya since 2004. If you get bored, Google my name and take a look at some of my artwork. Miles hates it likely (because it's CGI) but I don't let that bother me.

My model in that scene has become too unwieldy and complex to "fix", so I'll just start from scratch since it's not the geometry models that are bunk, but the animation and math. I just need to delete all the animation keys and start over.

I KNOW this can be scripted, this whole stacked spin model, but I lack the skills with MEL (Maya Embedded Language) or Python to do so currently. I'd love to make it work with a nice little UI panel, so you could flip the spin directions per stack to see how that would look with one click, or something.

I'll work on it and get back to you folks, and keep the critiques coming please.

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Re: Proposal: Electricity Animation

Post by Nevyn on Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:24 am

Then you should have a look at my Stacked Spin Motion Simulator, because that is exactly what I have done. I wrote it many moons ago in Java3D and have recently ported it to the browser with ThreeJS and made some improvements. Not that you shouldn't build one yourself because there is so much to learn in doing so and you might see things differently to how I do and come up with something different.
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Re: Proposal: Electricity Animation

Post by Jared Magneson on Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:10 am

That looks really cool, Nevyn, but to a layman it's going to be a complete mystery. Don't take that the wrong way. I'm totally with you on the mathematical accuracy here, it's not only important, if it's wrong then the visualization is wrong! My problem is tackling Maya to make things work properly, and your input is as relevant and appreciated as Miles' is on this one. The time difference on the stacking spins is something I'd have never thought of, sadly enough.

I was able to show and convince my younger brother earlier of several key points, which was a polemic feat. He tends to despise Mathis because he's a huge Elon Musk fan, out of hand. So being able to show him how/why the photon become an electron, etc., and have him nod his head like, "Damn, that's really clean bro. That makes sense." was a pretty big turning point. We've gone dozens of rounds on all these topics.

So my purpose here is to make videos which show the layman (or the haters) how it works, using the top shelf software that NASA, Pixar, and those other pansies are using. Almost everything we see from them CAME from Maya, including most of their fake "artist's interpretation" pics and headlines that they rarely state are actually just artist's interpretations.

It's going to be a long haul, but I'd really like to get to the point where I can show physically just what electricity and magnetism are, how they work, and why. From there it's going to be a pretty quick jump to diagramming, in motion, all the elements and molecule. Mathis has given us a groundwork, but he sucks at graphics (we're basically opposites, there) and I'm here to fill in that gap if possible.

Please keep telling me the animations are wrong until they are right. I need to be accurate, because otherwise it'd just be more propaganda and bullshit fudgery. Thanks for your input, Nevyn, and I look forward to more from you.

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Re: Proposal: Electricity Animation

Post by Nevyn on Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:59 am

Jared Magneson wrote:That looks really cool, Nevyn, but to a layman it's going to be a complete mystery. Don't take that the wrong way. I'm totally with you on the mathematical accuracy here, it's not only important, if it's wrong then the visualization is wrong!

I couldn't agree more. How to make it accessible to the user is something I struggle with when building these apps. They require so much knowledge of Miles' work.

I focus on the accuracy because I use these apps as learning tools. I learn as I build because I have to understand each motion to model it correctly. I make them very flexible so I can test ideas. They are my laboratory, hence the name of my site.

Jared Magneson wrote:
So my purpose here is to make videos which show the layman (or the haters) how it works, using the top shelf software that NASA, Pixar, and those other pansies are using. Almost everything we see from them CAME from Maya, including most of their fake "artist's interpretation" pics and headlines that they rarely state are actually just artist's interpretations.

It's going to be a long haul, but I'd really like to get to the point where I can show physically just what electricity and magnetism are, how they work, and why. From there it's going to be a pretty quick jump to diagramming, in motion, all the elements and molecule. Mathis has given us a groundwork, but he sucks at graphics (we're basically opposites, there) and I'm here to fill in that gap if possible.

I think we're on the same page just coming at it from different angles. Your approach will be much more accessible and mine is there when they want to dig deeper. Animations are great for showing things and applications are great for experimenting with things. You have given me some ideas on setting up some sort of tutorials that go over the material my apps show. I've been thinking about how I want to expand my site and that was one area I had identified and now I have some more concrete ideas. Thanks.
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Re: Proposal: Electricity Animation

Post by Jared Magneson on Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:26 pm

Hi folks,
I uploaded an updated video to Vimeo, my username is user27281157, and I'll be able to post my links/pics/vids in a couple days so please bear with me and Google that or something for now.

Nevyn, I don't mean to beat you up for help on this one as it SHOULD be pretty straightforward. I have not implemented the time variance yet, but as you can see we still have that "wobble". So I attached spinning labels to each locus-of-spin, to track the motion a little better. It looks to me like all the spins are still going properly, so the wobble is a natural occurrence?

But that doesn't seem natural or possible, that wobble. In my math I'm using a post-infinity "loop" so that I tell that particular spin to start at a certain time, go 360° in __ seconds (3, in all cases here, though this will change once I run your math), and then continue that rotational speed forever after that.

Do you see the actual labels wobbling, or are they spinning correctly to you? Is the wobble an optical illusion since I only have one "spin-stick" pointing from our photon? Or is the wobble perhaps because the rotational times are wrong?

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Re: Proposal: Electricity Animation

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