About Expansion and light

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About Expansion and light

Post by Ciaolo on Fri Sep 09, 2016 3:31 am

Hello everyone.

First of all thank you to whoever created this forum, so that I can discuss Mathis theories with someone else constructively.

This question / thought considers the Expansion Theory to be true. This means, that all matter expands at the same rate and this gives us the impression of "gravity" between objects.

Let's take this scenario:
The sun at a certain moment has a diameter of 1. On that instant a ring of photons starts its travel from the "edge" (as seen from us) towards our eyes. After several minutes, this ring arrives and we can give it a size. During this time the sun expanded.

If the photons expanded as well, the ring we see matches the current size of the sun.

If the photons did not expand, the ring we see has the size of the smaller sun of several minutes earlier.

So, my question is, which one is the case? How can we tell? Also I must add that the second scenario would tell us that distances between objects are much smaller than thought, because: imagine a probe going to the sun and measuring its diameter, then returning here where we use that value to confront it with what we see on a telescope and carry out a distance (average). Since the image on the telescope would be much smaller than what the sun really is at that moment, that distance is wrong.

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Re: About Expansion and light

Post by Nevyn on Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:01 am

Hi Ciaolo, welcome to the forum.

I'm not sure I agree with some of your assumptions but I can answer your question definitively. The photons expanded. I say that with absolute certainty (within the confines of the theory) because the only things that exist are BPhotons so if anything is expanding, it is them.

Your assumption that the ring we see matches the current size of the sun does not hold. The ring of photons and the sun are two very different entities and they will expand differently. Well, they will expand exactly the same (as in it is the BPhotons expanding) but the motion of that expansion will affect each entity differently.

The sun is a sphere of photons and the sum of the expansion of those photons causes the surface to move outwards because that is the only unconstrained direction. The ring does not have such constraints so each photon has more freedom in the directions it can go when struck by an adjacent photon because both have expanded. A photon in the ring could move outward, mimicking the suns photons, but they could just as easily move inward. The result of expansion on the ring would be a blurring rather than the ring getting larger.

So the ring we see would be a blurry image of the sun as it was 8 minutes before the measurement. The earth reacts to the charge field of the sun 8 minutes ago. Miles has used that to derive the 1/r^2 drop-off of gravity, which has never been done before.
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Re: About Expansion and light

Post by Ciaolo on Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:18 pm

Nevyn, thank you very much for your answer, it was really helpful.

But I don't quite understand what you mean by blurry, since we can see clear images of the sun and also of other much more distant objects...

Also, what about the true distance between objects? Is what I proposed in the OP true? (That sky objects are much nearer than expected)

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Re: About Expansion and light

Post by LloydK on Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:09 pm

Expansion doesn't make sense in reality, but Tharkun said expansion tendency is balanced by photon emission inward, so I think the expansion tendency is prevented from actually occurring, if he's right. Otherwise, if all matter expanded, it would be obvious, because they would get increasingly closer together.

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Re: About Expansion and light

Post by Nevyn on Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:34 pm

My reply was written about a ring of photons in isolation to everything else. So its photons could only collide with other photons in the ring (and then only the ones next to it since we are assuming a common trajectory). But that is not how reality (in this theory) works. There are photons everywhere, moving in all directions. They don't interact that much, but they can.

Our measuring devices, even our own eyes, won't miss a few photons that didn't make it, if they were knocked off their path by some other stray photon, because our devices measure an average over some time frame. This can help fix the blurriness because we are going to ignore the few photons that have moved slightly outward since there won't be many of them and they won't average out to a large enough value to register in the device. There are plenty of other photons from inside of the circle of photons coming from the sun that can also be nudged outward and take their place.

You would have to block the internal photons as close to the sun as possible to have a ring of photons and even then you wouldn't because the charge emission of the blocking device is also photons (although of a different kind so we could measure the difference, but that doesn't stop them from interfering with the ring of visible light photons on the path to our telescope).

If you take a look at various photos of our sun, you will see the blurriness around the edge. There is no sharp boundary that marks the surface of the sun as bright and right next to it is blackness. There is always a transition from light to dark. That is the blurriness I am talking about.

With respect to the actual distance being smaller than we calculate, I'm not really sure. I was going to argue against it but the more I think about it the more confused I get. I'll let you and the others make some comments and see how I feel about it. Right now I could be persuaded either way. If the earth is reacting to the charge field of the sun as it was 8 minutes ago, then it should also see the sun as it was 8 minutes ago. If we measure the sun we see using our current definition of the meter (by that I mean that the meter has expanded during those 8 minutes, so it is longer than it was) then we not only see a smaller sun than it really is at the time of measurement, but we also measure it smaller than it is because our comparison length is bigger. This may give us 2 separate ways that it looks smaller than it should, assuming we could find its true size at the same time that we measure the size from the earth.
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Re: About Expansion and light

Post by Nevyn on Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:54 pm

LloydK wrote:Expansion doesn't make sense in reality, but Tharkun said expansion tendency is balanced by photon emission inward, so I think the expansion tendency is prevented from actually occurring, if he's right. Otherwise, if all matter expanded, it would be obvious, because they would get increasingly closer together.

Ciaolo was very clear in defining the framework of their question when they stated:

Ciaolo wrote:This question / thought considers the Expansion Theory to be true.

The discussion is working within the theory, assuming it to be true and seeing what would happen. Not arguing for or against it.

I am interested to see Tharkun's explanation though. Do you have a link to that? I can't make much sense of your sentence but I would prefer to argue with the source rather than a single sentence about it.

I don't want to hijack this thread but it seems you are arguing that gravity itself does not exist. Things do get closer together, that is what gravity is and expansion is just a way that it might occur. Expansion is the only theory of gravity that I have seen that can explain why gravity can not be blocked, why gravity ignores mass and why there are no anti-gravity devices (a device that causes levitation, such as a spinning super-conductor disc, is not an anti-gravity device, it just causes a force in the opposite direction, it does not nullify gravity).
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Re: About Expansion and light

Post by Ciaolo on Sat Sep 10, 2016 4:37 am

Nevyn wrote:[...]

The sun is a sphere of photons and the sum of the expansion of those photons causes the surface to move outwards because that is the only unconstrained direction. The ring does not have such constraints so each photon has more freedom in the directions it can go when struck by an adjacent photon because both have expanded. A photon in the ring could move outward, mimicking the suns photons, but they could just as easily move inward. The result of expansion on the ring would be a blurring rather than the ring getting larger.

[...]

I extracted the ring from its context because I wanted to make clear that the final measure would have been the size of the sun image. That ring, though, is not as free as you described because it's accompanied by a lot of concentric rings (because the sun is spherical), and following rings. This could also propose the question: if photons expand, do they "push" preceding photons? They should always travel at the same speed, so there is something I clearly don't grasp here...

A quick OT question: expansion was proposed by Mathis (also by others?) because he inverted the gravity attraction vectors. If we put them back to the original versus, what is the equivalent phenomenon? Is it 4-dimentional curvature or something else?

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Re: About Expansion and light

Post by Nevyn on Sat Sep 10, 2016 8:53 am

The sun emits photons from random locations on its surface, in random directions at random time intervals. It doesn't emit a perfect sphere from its surface immediately followed by another layer. The ring is only conceptual, not real. The photons that make up the ring do not start out at an equal distance from the telescope. They don't travel side-by-side and arrive all at the same time. Each photon has a bit of space to itself. Some may collide with each other but we won't measure those or if we do, they will look like they came from a different spot on the sun (or even off the sun).

Any measurement we make will take some amount of time in order to interact with enough photons to make an image. That time frame sets the maximum distance that one photon can be in front of another photon (ie. the distance between them along the line from the measuring device back to the sun) for them to be in the same measurement.

So most of them can expand without colliding with any others and they maintain a view of the smaller sun without much, or any, blurring.
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