EM Drive with Microwaves

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EM Drive with Microwaves

Post by LloydK on Tue Nov 08, 2016 4:33 pm

Leaked NASA paper shows the 'impossible' EM Drive really does work
http://www.sciencealert.com/leaked-nasa-paper-shows-the-impossible-em-drive-really-does-work

The issue is the fact that the EM Drive defies Newton's third law, which states that everything must have an equal and opposite reaction. So, according to Newton and our current understanding of the world around us, for a system to produce propulsion, it has to push something out the other way (in space, that's usually combusted rocket fuel).

But the EM Drive works without any fuel or propellants at all. It works by simply bouncing microwave photons back and forth inside a cone-shaped closed metal cavity. That motion causes the 'pointy end' of the EM Drive to generate thrust, and propel the drive in the opposite direction.

Despite years of testing and debate, the drive remains controversial. The bottom line is that, on paper, it shouldn't work, according to the laws of physics. And yet, in test after test, the EM Drive just keeps on working.

Last year, NASA's Eagleworks Laboratory got involved to try to independently verify or debunk the EM Drive once and for all. And a new paper on its tests in late 2015 has just been leaked, showing that not only does the EM Drive work - it also generates some pretty impressive thrust.

To be clear, despite rumours that a NASA paper on these tests has passed the peer-review process, the version that's been leaked hasn't been published in an academic journal. So, for now, this is just one group of researchers reporting on their results, without any external verification.

But the paper concludes that, after error measurements have been accounted for, the EM Drive generates force of 1.2 millinewtons per kilowatt in a vacuum.

...

But they do offer further evidence that the thrust produced by the EM Drive is real. So it might be time to start trying to figure out how the system could work - and, more importantly, start testing the drive in space.

Thankfully that's scheduled to happen in the coming months, with plans to launch the first EM Drive having been made back in September.

And back in June, a team of researchers from Finland proposed a way that the EM Drive could work without defying Newton's third law, by propelling photons as a type of exhaust - although that hypothesis has yet to be tested.

...

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Re: EM Drive with Microwaves

Post by LongtimeAirman on Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:56 pm

From the article. Leaked NASA paper shows the 'impossible' EM Drive really does work
http://www.sciencealert.com/leaked-nasa-paper-shows-the-impossible-em-drive-really-does-work
“The issue is the fact that the EM Drive defies Newton's third law, which states that everything must have an equal and opposite reaction”.

But the EM Drive works without any fuel or propellants at all. It works by simply bouncing microwave photons back and forth inside a cone-shaped closed metal cavity. That motion causes the 'pointy end' of the EM Drive to generate thrust, and propel the drive in the opposite direction.

Lloyd wrote. I reckon the only way photon exhaust could propel it is if the photons have mass. Right?

Airman. Researchers also agree there is no third law violation – if photons have mass.
 
New paper claims that the EM Drive doesn't defy Newton's 3rd law after all
FIONA MACDONALD 16 JUN 2016
http://www.sciencealert.com/new-paper-claims-that-the-em-drive-doesn-t-defy-newton-s-3rd-law-after-all
Physicists have just published a new paper that suggests the controversial EM drive - or electromagnetic drive - could actually work, and doesn't defy Newton's third law after all.

According to the researchers, the exhaust being blasted out is actually light, or more specifically, photons that have become paired up with another out-of-phase photon in order to shoot out of the metal cavity and produce thrust.

Imo 'out-of-phase photon pairs...' solution sounds ridiculous. The photon equivalent of magical electron 'cooper-pairs'.  

First. What is exhaust? Exhaust is the product of fuel combustion. “the exhaust being blasted out”, are combustion reaction products that are wasted, as the unused kinetic energy is lost in the aft direction. Forward traveling combustion particles impacting the engine’s combustion nozzle provide all the propulsion. Those molecules lose their velocities and are left behind (not blasted) as true exhaust while the engine continues on its way.

Photons propel solar sails by direct collisions. How would one maximize delivery of a microwave photon’s kinetic energy in an engine? - by direct collision with the engine nozzle, I also see a rapid deterioration of any material surface subjected to constant photon bombardment. A better reaction may be to deliver only the photon collision’s spin component to the nozzle.
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Re: EM Drive with Microwaves

Post by LloydK on Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:12 am

Do you know if solar sails have been proven to work? If so, how could they say photons are massless? Do they credit the solar wind, instead of photons? The solar wind is confined to the ecliptic, so a solar sail would theoretically not work away from the ecliptic, unless photons have mass. Solar sails should not work well beyond the orbit of Saturn or so, since there's very little solar radiation at such distances. Right?

Anyway, if the EM Drive does work, it seems like it must be due to photon mass. Right?

Now I have another new finding to post.

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Re: EM Drive with Microwaves

Post by LongtimeAirman on Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:07 am

.
Airman. During a Phy101 class in the late 80's, I remember having to calculate the thrust of a lit flashlight held by a spaceman.
We start with the equivalence given by e=mc^2.
 
http://www.space.com/25800-ikaros-solar-sail.html
Ikaros: First Successful Solar Sail
By Elizabeth Howell, Space.com Contributor | May 7, 2014 10:10pm ET
Ikaros is a Japanese spacecraft that was the first to successfully use a solar sail at some distance from Earth.
"The small solar power sail demonstrator 'Ikaros,' which successfully deployed its solar sail, was confirmed to accelerate by [the] solar sail receiving solar pressure," officials from the Japanese Aerospace Exploration Agency wrote in a July 9, 2010 update. "This proved that the Ikaros has generated the biggest acceleration through photon during interplanetary flight in history."

The Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency's Ikaros solar sail is seen in deep space after its deployment on June 14, 2010, in this view taken from a small camera ejected by the sail.
Credit: JAXA.
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Lloyd wrote. Anyway, if the EM Drive does work, it seems like it must be due to photon mass. Right?

Airman. Yes. Remember that we have both the electric and magnetic components. They are both manifestations of the photon's 'mass'.
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Last edited by LongtimeAirman on Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:17 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : 1) Added final dialogue 2) deleted end of my sentence "of photon spin.")

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