Stacked Spins - scripting the photon's motion (technical)

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Review?

Post by LongtimeAirman on Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:31 pm

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Jared. My basic script, so far. I think it needs to be compressed and simplified as much as possible, though.
Airman. Hi Jared. A script? Do you mean code script? Or are you going to add a sound track describing the scene? How long do you need to speak? Who is your intended audience?
 
I routinely cite, or list all the pertinent charge field ideas before answering a question. I’m sure the viewer finds it tedious, I try to keep a positive attitude and continue. Describing things properly is essential for learning. Between you and me, I make plenty of errors.

Here’s my first chop at clearing up your Postulate paragraph, take it or leave it.

Postulate: The photon is the fundamental quanta, the smallest particle we are aware of. It is a real particle, with real radius, volume, extension, and spin. Photon collisions transfer energy as described by Einstein’s E=mc². The c² comes directly from the combined energies from the photon’s linear (c) and spin tangential velocities, both c.

The vimeo. The yellow particle (ball) has always had a stick through its center that is very distracting. As the yellow balls spins, its stick delivers hits to green balls 1,2 and 4. Could you replace the stick axis with pole markers? Would it be possible add a brief show collision points? Since you ask, the transparent clones are distracting, they aren’t needed.

If Nevyn thinks you may have all but one of the directions and impact points correct, you must be learning.
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Re: Stacked Spins - scripting the photon's motion (technical)

Post by Jared Magneson on Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:06 am

Thanks, Nevyn. I played with these collisions a lot but thought there was something fishy about a couple of them. Both your suggestions make perfect sense, now that I'm looking at it again. I'll fix it and re-upload for further analysis.

I apologize for constantly asking you for clarification, but I feel like it's of the utmost importance to get this right.

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Re: Stacked Spins - scripting the photon's motion (technical)

Post by Jared Magneson on Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:53 am

LongTimeAirman wrote:Here’s my first chop at clearing up your Postulate paragraph, take it or leave it.

Postulate: The photon is the fundamental quanta, the smallest particle we are aware of. It is a real particle, with real radius, volume, extension, and spin. Photon collisions transfer energy as described by Einstein’s E=mc². The c² comes directly from the combined energies from the photon’s linear (c) and spin tangential velocities, both c.

Perfect. Much better, to the point, and cleaner than my prose.

LongTimeAirman wrote:Airman. Hi Jared. A script? Do you mean code script? Or are you going to add a sound track describing the scene? How long do you need to speak? Who is your intended audience?

No, I mean a written on-screen explanation (somehow!) or at least in the description sections of the Vimeo. You're right, it needs to be short, clean, and very explicit. So I really need to compress and clean things up for the layfolk.

And yes, pertinent links should definitely be involved. But for an online video I think that should go into the description section?

I'm really trying to make this a nice, clean intro to the charge field. Further videos should go along the same lines.

As for axial markers, I think you're right as well about that. I need to make it obvious the difference between paths and markers and actual "matter", so there's little or no confusion. I'll work on that from an animator's perspective and see what I can come up with.

Thanks, both of you, for your input. This is kind of a group project so I really appreciate all the feedback and patience! Sometimes it feels like I'm stumbling through this but the concepts need to be explored, and need to be presented accurately. Down the road we'll be doing huge simulations with billions of these spinning particles, so if our foundations are wrong then the whole thing goes to shit. I want to avoid that. Avoiding shit is a long-term goal, here. Smile

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Review continued

Post by LongtimeAirman on Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:39 pm

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Jared wrote. As for axial markers, I think you're right as well about that. I need to make it obvious the difference between paths and markers and actual "matter", so there's little or no confusion. I'll work on that from an animator's perspective and see what I can come up with.

Airman. Making changes and taking criticism isn't easy. The axial sticks and transparent clones served their purpose, now they stand out like training wheels on a bicycle. They are still there if needed.

Axial markers. I don't recall discussion on this subject. My preferred autocad particle diagram is an up or down (forward direction), red or blue, matter or antimatter, hemispheres. Spin is orthogonal to the forward direction as one’s fingers curl in the right-hand rule. Looking down to Earth from the equatorial plane to the Earth we expect to see twice as many photons to anti-photons. In studying individual collisions we may or may not maintain our forward/reverse or up/down directions.

Here’s a suggested edit of you initial theory paragraph.

Theory: The photon can become any larger charged particle through spin stacking. Photons already moving and spinning at c cannot move or spin any faster; energy gained through a collision will induce an end-over-end spin outside the gyroscopic influence of the prior spin, doubling the photon’s radius and mass for each new spin. As the photon stacks spins, its overall motion becomes larger and more recursive, it has become a charged particle. Charged particles recycle the smaller photons it encounters by confining, then generally re-emitting them equatorially away from the charged particle’s top spin direction. When the photon stacks enough spins, 4 or 8 – we don’t know exactly - it becomes an electron. Four more spins and the electron can become a neutron or proton. In this way, all charged particles are built from the fundamental B-photon.
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Re: Stacked Spins - scripting the photon's motion (technical)

Post by Jared Magneson on Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:35 am

LongtimeAirman wrote:When the photon stacks enough spins, 4 or 8 – we don’t know exactly - it becomes an electron.

These parts kinda mess with me. We still haven't reconciled Mathis's various maths on this one, as far as I know. Not with ourselves or with him. I'd really like to get this out of the way but it's a barrier until we do. Nevyn's the only one close, it seems like. I'd defer to him, but until we get a pretty powerful simulation up to speed (my deficit, nobody else's) to see how these things could act it's a fuzzy area.

How much recursion is necessary to trap and recycle charge photons?

I'm hitting calculation barriers here, even with the most powerful software around and tons of CPU and GPU cores to toss at the issue.

And at the end of the day, it's crap in, crap out. Simulations are only as good as their programming. It's not proof of anything, but could be supporting evidence in many ways. I'm mostly just trying to diagram these stacked spins so we can see how this recursion would actually work and look. So this entire thread is basically me struggling to get to (and past) the third stacked spin.

It's daunting. Sometimes it's too complex for my mind to deal with, especially compounded with trying to make Maya's mind deal with it too. Sometimes I just "give up" for a few days or weeks, to let myself regroup and step back. And sometimes I just need the feedback you folks give me to power me back up again, go at the problem another way.

But I feel like progress is being made, slowly but surely! I'm working on making this short video neat, clean, and very accessible to the layman. And all these critiques and analyses you guys give me is just phenomenal, very appreciated.

It'll get there. I've got some animator buddies over on CGTalk helping me out with techniques and methodologies too, so hopefully I'll have some "good shit" to share with you guys shortly.

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Re: Stacked Spins - scripting the photon's motion (technical)

Post by Jared Magneson on Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:59 am

Here's another revised, reworked attempt at illustrating the theory. I've replaced most of the ornaments outright in favor of transparent arrows and vector-markers, and a simple thin red ring around our B-photon to show its initial rotational axis. It's the same spins we've been looking at, so the spin dynamics should be proper. I've added some impact "rings" as well, to show the collisions a little better. But these may not be terribly helpful?



https://vimeo.com/225210003

Is this less confusing, or more? Sans any dialogue, does it seem obvious that the particle is spinning up after each collision? Do the new ornaments work better or worse? The dialogue should be an accessory. Anyone watching should be able to see what's going on, even if they don't understand it outright.

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Paint Your Particles

Post by LongtimeAirman on Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:01 pm

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Yellow, red and green photons. I see a thin red equatorial line about the yellow photon.

Solid color spheres prevent the viewer from seeing the particle spins. Instead, you indicate particle motions with spin ribbons, spinning arrows, expanding impact circles and center markers for new end-over-end spins – all outside the colored spheres. I must admit, the motions displayed are fascinating, if not hypnotic. They actually draw attention away from the recursive motions of the particles under study.

Last time I requested brief (short duration) collision marks, I was thinking of spots drawn on the two colliding surfaces and not as an expanding circle in space. The first collision – expanding red circle – appears orthogonal to the red sphere’s forward motion along – say – the x-axis. That cannot be correct, the red particle is traveling in the x direction just below the x axis. The line of collision between the two spheres must have a z component which doesn’t appear to be present in the expanding collision circle. All the collision circles seem to be in single x, y, or z directions, none are normal to the collisions they are intended to highlight. I don't think they make things clearer.

I strongly believe surface markers will enable a much better interpretation of the action. Please differentiate the photon surfaces. With visible photon motions, external markers will be less essential. We should at least be able to distinguish the pole locations, with dots, circles or crosses. Last time I suggested red or blue hemispheres - a minimum of surface differentiation. For example, your horizontally spin oriented yellow particle would blue hemisphere up, red hemisphere down. I would further suggest dividing each hemisphere into quarters, blue and white quadrants above, red and white below. Or, similarly, consider marking those three great circles (equator and two orthogonal circles intersecting at both poles) in clear lines on the sphere’s surface.
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Re: Stacked Spins - scripting the photon's motion (technical)

Post by Nevyn on Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:16 pm

I agree that the ribbons are cool to watch, but distracting. I watched the entire video and it was only once I came back to this forum that I remembered that there were collisions.

A simple approach I have used (SpinSim) for markers is to create 2 spheres per BPhoton. One is the solid color you want it to be and the other is only rendered in wireframe. You may need to make the wireframe sphere slightly larger than the solid sphere. Otherwise parts of the wireframe disappear.

My other approach, which I think looks really cool, is what I have done in my particle simulator in OpenGL. I believe I have put videos of it here but not sure where (I was demonstrating Octree Indexes). It is a sphere implemented as an Icosahedron. I then create colored sections (red, green and blue) by setting the color per vertex and this creates a strip per color with the same color on opposite sides. That requires code to set up for me, not sure if it would be feasible in Maya. I'm sure it can be done but not sure how hard it would be. Icosahedrons only contain 20 vertices and this is not enough for a smooth sphere so I have to create new vertices between the existing ones until I reach a point where it is smooth. The colors are smoothly interpolated between old and new vertices.

An easier approach is to just apply a texture to the sphere. The texture needs some sort of pattern or irregularity. There are plenty of rock textures around the need that work well. Have a look at my Expansion apps for an example of this.
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Re: Stacked Spins - scripting the photon's motion (technical)

Post by Jared Magneson on Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:11 pm

These are all great ideas, thanks again to you both. I think I'll go with wireframes and per-vertex colors overlaid onto the solid, smooth sphere as it will be really easy to implement in Maya. Wireframe is the default state, and even the smooth-shaded spheres are just a SubD surface at rendertime. I literally just click "Wireframe on Shaded" and that's done. Plus since they pinch at the poles already (like a wrapped globe), the poles should be readily apparent.



How do the motions look, otherwise? I tried hard to correct those impacts, but perhaps the expanding rings are too distracting. I could easily pop a red dot or locator at those collisions though so I'm gonna try that instead.

Maybe I let the Z1 spin play through a few times then fade in those arrows later? I mean, if they help at all in describing the motions?

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Re: Stacked Spins - scripting the photon's motion (technical)

Post by Nevyn on Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:59 am

It is hard to tell how the actual collisions are without seeing the circles. The Y spin collision (green) looks strange to me but I can't figure out exactly what it is. At first I thought it was hitting at the wrong time. Then I thought it was colliding at the right time but not spinning the correct way from that collision. Then I thought it might be the X spin affecting the new Y spin that causes it to move in a weird direction. I don't know.

Could you make the arrows longer so that they create the circle of the former videos? This allows the arrow to spin around and show direction while still having the complete circle to see how it relates to the other spin levels.
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Re: Stacked Spins - scripting the photon's motion (technical)

Post by Jared Magneson on Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:01 pm

Nevyn wrote:Could you make the arrows longer so that they create the circle of the former videos?

Definitely. I'll play with that.

Meanwhile, here's the raw, ornament-free video with the wireframe overlays. Same motions, just no external stuff:

https://vimeo.com/225368694

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Re: Stacked Spins - scripting the photon's motion (technical)

Post by LongtimeAirman on Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:30 pm

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Jared, I’ve viewed your stripped down version many times. I can’t say the motions are correct or not. I think the wire frame helps, it certainly conveys the recursive motion all by itself.

The next thing I would request is to include a track of the particle’s path, this would allow a direct comparison with Nevyn’s Spin Simulator.  
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Re: Stacked Spins - scripting the photon's motion (technical)

Post by Jared Magneson on Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:53 pm

Yes, a motion trail path of some sort is definitely in order.

But I haven't changed my motions themselves since Nevyn and Miles both concurred on whichever revision it was, awhile back. I've only been applying the collision objects (which aren't actually colliding at all, just key-framed to appear that way) and the various trails and such atop that grouped hierarchy that "worked".

This isn't to say the motions are perfect, but they should be close down to a few decimal places. And I'm always open to correction. I do lose a bit of precision translating to 30fps in the math, since there are no "half-frames" to work with. So the math is a little sloppier than it could be, but hopefully we're making some progress.

Again, I'm not trying to replace any of Nevyn's tools, but make something a layperson might be able to understand quickly. Miles asked me to work on this further awhile back, so I think he wants to link it in on some of his papers - but it's gotta be RIGHT. And legible! Which is what I struggle with.

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