Neutron charge emission - where does it go?

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Neutron charge emission - where does it go?

Post by Jared Magneson on Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:57 am

I've been looking at the neutron a bit more today, and it struck me as add that its emissions blast right into the proton's emission with, well, no discernable effect. Could be grasping at straws here. But it seems like the proton and the neutron must emit/recycle a similar amount of charge, only with the neutron it would be more concentrated since it's pole-to-pole. If they're both pushing a similar amount of photons per second, the proton's emissions should be very much more dispersed and the neutron's should be (relative to the proton's) concentrated, like a laser.

Looking at Mathis's models, Nevyn's models, and my own, it seems like the neutron's charge should either plug in to the proton's more readily or otherwise blast the proton's charge away, as they meet.

http://www.nevyns-lab.com/science/physics/AtomicWebViewer/AtomicViewer.php

(I was looking at that model of Thorium, but any of those past Helium should illustrate my point.)

In my model, the angles are way too tight.

https://vimeo.com/157484485

There's no direct connect between the neutrons (green spheres) and the protons (yellow), it's just that's how I modeled it for animation's sake. Could it be simply that the neutrons and protons are much further apart, and the ~30 N and S emissions would line up better to enter the neutron's poles if there were a greater distance? Do we have any distance calcs relative to the radius of the proton, where the other protons and neutrons might be?

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Re: Neutron charge emission - where does it go?

Post by Nevyn on Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:18 pm

To be fair, your model is closer to what Miles has diagrammed than mine. Although, you can adjust how far in/out they are in AtomicViewer but it always seemed to me that they should be further out. Mainly because they are supposed to be support pillars, of a kind, and supports generally work better further out. Miles paper of Deuterium suggested that they were close to the proton though.

I'm not so convinced that the through-charge of the neutron will make that much of an impact on the protons charge emission. Yes, it will make some changes but it should only be slight. If it is measurable, one day, then it could be confirmation of this nuclear structure. It would show as a dip in the protons emission and a small charge stream perpendicular to the protons emission where the neutron is. I've always wondered if the neutrons stay in one spot (relative to the proton) or if they circle around. I have modeled both in AV and it looks pretty cool with all of that rotation going on but it gets in the way of studying the models a bit.

I think the neutron's emission is only 0.6 of the protons (for the same volume of space?). Or was that its magnetic moment? I can't remember. Even if it is the magnetic moment, then that is caused by the same charge photons so it probably amounts to the same thing.

By the way, you can specify the element you want to show on the AV URL like this:

http://www.nevyns-lab.com/science/physics/AtomicWebViewer/AtomicViewer.php?metadata=false&element=90&position=0,0,90

I meant to add a button to retrieve the current view as a URL with the element and position set for you but never got around to it.

My charge streams do not know anything about each other, they are just for visual effect. Collisions at that level are beyond what AV is trying to do, although it would be nice. Maybe one day I will reach that level. Given my current projects, it seems like it should be possible at some stage but the shear amount of photons required is quite staggering to me at the moment.
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Re: Neutron charge emission - where does it go?

Post by Nevyn on Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:19 pm

This paper has some interesting things to say:

http://milesmathis.com/neutron.pdf

Seems the neutron is not as energetic inside the nucleus, although Miles is mostly talking about neutrons that are used as stoppers, so are in a place that could have a proton in there, and not about neutrons inside of a proton stack. See iron as an example:

http://www.nevyns-lab.com/science/physics/AtomicWebViewer/AtomicViewer.php?metadata=false&element=26&position=0,0,60
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Re: Neutron charge emission - where does it go?

Post by Jared Magneson on Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:23 am

Indeed, I don't think the neutron's emissions would off-balance anything, I'm just trying to visualize where they go. But it seems like perhaps I should be visualizing where they COME from, instead. That close to the proton, some ambient charge will of course exist and the neutron was already recycling it and doing its Neutron Thang before or just after it meets the proton in the nucleus, anyway. But that said, THAT close to the proton (however close it is), the neutron may be receiving plenty of charge from the proton too. And the neutron's emission wouldn't really affect the proton itself, but rather the proton's emission profile as they collide.

It might not be very important. What I'm really trying to rule out is the neutron pointing IN, at 90°, while I work on a new model. I'm not representing through-charge very well in my models and I'm trying to figure out where it's going, how it fits in. While I don't have much problem with our model (based on Mathis's, as it stands) it's a bit weird for me to see the neutrons still kinda just... Neutral? If they're emitting up and down (towards the proton's emission), then wouldn't they be repelling and thus blocking some of the proton's emission that is supposed to be keeping them in place?

Here's a quick diagram I 'Shopped together from a screencap of my previous model. Here, I've purposely drawn the neutrons at 90° to see how it looks. Of course this now begs the question of what happens in the center, but it was the best way I could think of to illustrate my problem here.



Mostly I'm just looking for clarification and ideas on this one. I don't think this is how it works but for some reason the neutron just seems fishy to me lately, pointing up and down. What keeps it up and down, relative to the protons? Ambient charge and magnetism? Is it easier for the neutron to spin at this orientation and location, in a similar way it's easier for it to be sandwiched mechanically between the protons?

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Re: Neutron charge emission - where does it go?

Post by Jared Magneson on Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:28 am

To put it another way, what is keeping this (green) neutron in place here in your AV model of Iron? External ambient charge pressure?



We can readily see it channeling through here, so it makes some sense, but I feel like I'm missing something about how/why it would be constrained in the alpha particle (He) configuration.




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Re: Neutron charge emission - where does it go?

Post by LongtimeAirman on Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:16 pm

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Jared, Good observation. I think you’ve found a Miles modeling error. I don’t believe we can have single protons at carousal arm ends (as shown in your last image from AV), and then tack a single orthogonal neutron on top of that. A single proton/neutron cannot stand out on the arm, a single alpha can.

I’ll try to justify myself. First, if I understand correctly, there is no straight pole-to-pole charge flow through neutrons. All neutron charge enters one pole and exits the other only after having transited through each the four neutron spin levels. If a proton converts random photons into proton emission plane traffic, what does the neutron do? It seems to pass limited pole traffic.

Within say Iron, neutrons positioned outside the holes (proton poles outside axis alphas) at right angle to the main axis are held by charge “suction” – where the charge field density surrounding the neutron is greater than the charge density channel to the axial proton. Miles explains this with the fact that given the proton counts, the main axis draws more charge current than can be released by the carousal. This results in a larger amount of pole-to-pole current. Empty holes along the axis allow charge currents to rush in, these currents can unbalance and break such atomic structures. The neutron at the proton pole reduces the charge flow into the proton (alpha).

Within Alphas, neutrons are the pillars that allow protons to stack in pairs. I’m not aware of a good description of charge flow through alpha neutrons.
 
Nestled within the alpha's dual proton emission field, neutrons (and protons) are attracted gravitationaly. They are held apart by their mutual charge emissions. Neutron poles are oriented parallel to the proton poles. Charge flow through the alpha is not hindered because the two neutrons prevent either neutron from positioning itself in the alphas’ primary proton to proton charge path. Neutrons cannot pass direct proton to proton charge flows, but they will still pass a lower charge current parallel to, but off of the main alpha axis.

So what are the actual single proton and neutron positions at the carousal arm ends? I think it's likely the proton will align its axis with the two existing alphas below it. The neutron would then "stopper" the arm end in line with proton.
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Re: Neutron charge emission - where does it go?

Post by Nevyn on Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:52 pm

I don't see any problems with that neutron being attached to the single carousel proton. The proton has a charge intake and the neutron gets held in there by that charge flow. The neutron orients itself so that its own through-charge is inline with the protons charge intake and they form a charge channel together. This limits the charge reaching the proton and that limits the through-charge of that proton so that the carousel arms charge flow is actually increased since there is less cross traffic.

What I have trouble with is the direction of charge through the carousel. I can easily see charge flowing into it (from the outside) since there is protons/stacks there pushing charge towards the core (when there are 2 carousel levels, as in 2 stacks on the same arm). Charge flowing out of it is a little harder to see. Yes, I can see the channels for it to flow through but it is taking the atoms through-charge and turning it to flow out the carousel arms that I struggle with. Miles just says that angular momentum causes it but I find that a little less mechanical than I like. My only justification is that the core proton stack takes some of the atoms through-charge and emits it equatorially which pushes it towards the carousel arms but that has nothing to do with angular momentum of the carousel level at all.

With respect to neutrons inside a proton stack, I'm happy enough that the neutrons sit up-right but not so sure of what charge they feed on. Miles seems to imply that they feed off the through-charge of the protons which does seem to help with my next question. How is it that they don't get pushed out? Could they use enough of the protons emission charge in such a way that it doesn't push them out? If they feed off the through-charge then that could hold them in close to the protons so that they don't get hit by the protons emission (much). But then they aren't really working as structural supports. So they probably should be a lot closer to the center of a proton stack than I have modeled in AV (by default). They look a bit strange when I push them to the center, but that is just me being used to seeing them a certain way rather than any physical reasons.
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Re: Neutron charge emission - where does it go?

Post by LongtimeAirman on Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:44 pm

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Here's a good alpha reference.

Gas Discharge Lamps a better theory
http://milesmathis.com/gas.pdf
The reason I could see the better answer so fast is that I have already drawn the Helium nucleus in detail. I first drew it several years ago  in my first attempt to explain charge channeling. Although that first diagram was rough, it did the job it needed to do. A couple of years later I improved that diagram immensely by showing the fuller role of neutrons in the architecture. This is from  my paper on Deuterium:

I will just copy what I said there:

That is the He sandwich I was talking about, but here I have drawn all the main charge vectors. From them, you can see that the neutrons must bond in He4 side-to-side. The left neutron is then channeling the anticharge of the upper 2H, but since the bottom 2H is upside-down to the top one, it doesn't feel that charge as anticharge. It is looking at the anticharge from the other direction, so it sees it as charge. Which of course means our two neutrons are reversed. One is upside-down to the other. In some way, it is now an anti-neutron.
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Re: Neutron charge emission - where does it go?

Post by Nevyn on Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:42 pm

Yeah, that's what I was thinking of when I wrote that Miles puts the neutrons close to the protons and taking charge from their through-charge.

Does that diagram seem out of proportion to anyone else? The neutrons seems too big. Maybe I am making my proton charge emission discs too large (which you can adjust in AV and it makes everything look really weird to me, but again, that is just what I am used to). Maybe it should be a bit more like this:

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Re: Neutron charge emission - where does it go?

Post by LongtimeAirman on Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:01 pm

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That does seem to be a radical change. I guess you've adjusted your alpha emission radius and so the single protons still have your previous emission radius, bringing that proton closer would alleviate what I feel is a problem with the proton/neutron hanging out there so far.

Have you considered whether your emission disc may be too sharp, or well defined. Miles has described the photon emission as fans, not angled of course, but a bit more broadening, latitude wise may be more accurate. That fan might even help block neutrons from leaving the alpha.
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Re: Neutron charge emission - where does it go?

Post by Nevyn on Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:30 pm

I just reduced the size of the emission disc for all protons (they don't care if they are in a stack or not) using the settings in the app. The red spheres (protons BPhoton volume) and the green spheres (neutrons BPhoton volume) have not changed. There is a perspective distortion in that image above as the gray discs look larger than the blue but they are actually the same size.

The trouble I have with emission discs is that they need to start from a small volume of space around the protons equator and then spread out which is very hard to model without cluttering it up. The charge particles show the emission volume much better because I can give them the directions I want but the discs are just squashed spheres.

Here is the same image but with the discs turned off and the charge particles with a very high density (to help see them):



The charge particles don't come out very well in the images, but you can see how the particles spread out as they leave the proton. This also shows the density being reduced as that charge spreads out which was mentioned (on a planetary scale) in another thread the other day (in Lloyd's thread about tides).
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Re: Neutron charge emission - where does it go?

Post by Nevyn on Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:33 pm

I don't think the protons charge emission can block the neutron from leaving the stack (I used to think that). If anything, it should push it out which is why I mentioned Miles idea that they use the through-charge to feed on since that keeps them close to the inside of the stack where they won't be hit by the emission of the protons.
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Re: Neutron charge emission - where does it go?

Post by Jared Magneson on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:21 am

Thank you both for reminding me of that diagram of his. I've read all his papers three or more times, but there's so much to digest and it's pretty difficult to search his site (I mean, from a database POV) so sometimes I get lost in it all. And I really appreciate you folks being here to respond and correct me. Miles is pretty slow at responding, and tends to take an attitude of "read all 300 of my papers again", even if he never actually says that.

I'll fix my model. I had the neutron's in/out charge stream somehow linked to the proton's equatorial emission, and should have known better. I knew there was something inherently wrong with my model.

The proton's equatorial charge is supposed to, as I understand it, kinda "sandwich" the neutrons if they get to close. But I can very much see how it would seem they would instead push them out, since the charge's vector is definitely going out from the nucleus much more than angled towards it.

I'll be back with a new diagram shortly. I've found a better way to use Maya to represent our particles, only without any stacked spin kinematics really, so I'm just going by mass differentials until I can figure that out and insert it. Meanwhile I should be able to make some videos showing electricity, magnetism, and more to help people visualize things better, but at the cost of the per-photon accuracy we'd all love to see in play. My models are inferior to Nevyn's, both mathematically and visually. But perhaps we can use them in the same way we all use Mathis's (frankly) terrible diagrams to get the point across, and study the finer points as they come up.

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Re: Neutron charge emission - where does it go?

Post by LongtimeAirman on Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:30 pm

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Nevyn wrote: With respect to neutrons inside a proton stack, I'm happy enough that the neutrons sit up-right but not so sure of what charge they feed on. Miles seems to imply that they feed off the through-charge of the protons which does seem to help with my next question. How is it that they don't get pushed out? Could they use enough of the protons emission charge in such a way that it doesn't push them out? If they feed off the through-charge then that could hold them in close to the protons so that they don't get hit by the protons emission (much). But then they aren't really working as structural supports. So they probably should be a lot closer to the center of a proton stack than I have modeled in AV (by default).
Nevyn, I don’t see your point that charge pushed toward the carousel arms has nothing to do with the angular momentum of the carousel level. The core proton stack - the carousel - is spinning. Angular momentum is present where each of the core protons turn charge from the main axis to their emission planes, and so to the carousel arms.

From http://milesmathis.com/gas.pdf
Since it is the charge stream that was holding the neutrons in their positions, one of the neutrons will become nearly useless in the new architecture. Since all the charge is going the opposite way to its channel, it will have nothing to do. Even more, the charge channel on the other neutron will become overloaded. There will be more charge to channel than the single neutron can channel. Therefore, the unused neutron will flip to match its channel to the given channel. In doing this, the conductivity of the alpha will increase greatly. In fact, under optimal conditions, we would expect to see an increase from 2/3 – 1/3 = .33 to 2, which is an increase of 6x in a single alpha.

I had forgotten that alpha neutrons can flip within the alpha allowing it to accommodate widely changing charge streams. Alpha neutrons definitely feed off through charge, but I don’t see how that holds them close together. I don’t see why gravity isn’t a factor here. Note, Miles is fairly explicit - ‘the charge stream holds the neutrons in their positions’.

One of my problems is understanding how that the charge stream through the alpha (or atom) is at lower pressure then outside the alpha (or atom). The charge field is denser outside the alpha and so ‘holes in the axis alphas must be stopped to prevent charge from rushing in to unbalance all but the smallest elements. The charge field acts more like a fluid than a gas but we tend to think of charge as light rays.

There seems to be much more charge present than we assume.
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Re: Neutron charge emission - where does it go?

Post by Nevyn on Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:21 pm

This is what I am talking about:



That is the core of Iron showing the through-charge coming from the top and bottom and from each carousel arm. My question is what causes the north/south through-charge to turn and go out the carousel arms?

The 2 protons in the core stack will emit some of that charge and some of that will enter the carousel arms and be emitted along that charge channel. But that is only some of it, and not really enough to cause a strong through-charge on each carousel arm. Remember that these arms can be used for bonding and so they must have a dense through-charge to maintain that bond.

I just don't see how angular momentum has anything to do with it. Even if that core stack is spinning along with the carousel arms, that doesn't mean that the north/south through-charge will be turned by it. Another possibility is that the through-charge collides in the middle and some of it is turned to exit through the carousel arms but again, that is not really enough for a dense carousel through-charge stream. Even adding them together doesn't seem to add up to enough, to me.
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Re: Neutron charge emission - where does it go?

Post by LongtimeAirman on Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:31 pm

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Nevyn, I believe the AV model is misleading you. For each carousel charge stream you show only one charge path where there are actually 2. In the alpha diagram above, Miles shows main charge vectors along each proton of the alpha where the AV model has only one, a charge stream penetrating neutron equators.

The single charge stream along the alpha axis is still a "single vertical bright line" although we recognize the stream feeds side by side neutrons.
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Re: Neutron charge emission - where does it go?

Post by Nevyn on Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:03 pm

I think we are talking about 2 different things.

AV does have charge streams running in both directions but they are along the same line, within the same cylindrical volume. I agree that AV does not model the neutron positions well and certainly does not model these through-charge streams going through the neutrons at all.

What I was trying to get at is how the through-charge coming in from the top and bottom gets converted into carousel output through-charge. Nothing to do with the neutrons at all, really. Although, you have helped me to see that if those neutrons are close to the protons, then it is only the protons equatorial emission that can reach the carousel through-charge channels.
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Re: Neutron charge emission - where does it go?

Post by LongtimeAirman on Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:44 pm

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The main axis charge stream should not intersect with the carousel streams as shown in AV.

You are showing the carousel charge paths intersecting within the core alpha in a single line (plane). That is incorrect. The alpha axis charge stream may be a single line, but the alpha side currents are channeled into two lines, the proton emission planes.

The carousal charge path through the core is along the proton emission planes, and not the single line between them. Any charge along the main axis diverted to the proton emission plane is on its way to the carousel arm, that's the angular momentum change.
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Re: Neutron charge emission - where does it go?

Post by Nevyn on Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:30 am

It seems you are only thinking of the carousel arms as output. There can be protons on the ends of those arms that push charge into the carousel arm from the outside. Nothing is stopping that charge from traveling all the way into the core.

But you are correct, I haven't modeled them correctly since AV has streams going both ways from the very center of the core to the carousel arms and there should only really be charge coming in from the carousel. The output carousel comes from the proton emission, as we have established.
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Re: Neutron charge emission - where does it go?

Post by LongtimeAirman on Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:00 am

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Through-charge coming in from the top and bottom gets converted into carousel output through the proton emission planes. OK we agree.

The charge stream (vector lines) can alternate between emission plane to pole-to-pole and back to emission plane. I don't believe you can assume carousel arm inputs to the core center can intersect at a single point (volume) in space within the alpha core either; neutrons become obstacles. There would be no direct way for that carousel arm's incoming charge to rejoin the main axis charge stream.
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Re: Neutron charge emission - where does it go?

Post by Nevyn on Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:00 am

I just found an interesting statement from Miles about neutrons inside an alpha, and it contradicts our findings. This is from the paper on Oxygen and Nitrogen in the atmosphere:

Miles Mathis wrote:
I have published the above math before,* but we are required to go into new theory now, since we have
to ask exactly how much charge channeling neutrons are capable of. In my nuclear diagrams in
previous papers, I have mainly used them as stoppers or posts, while admitting that they do more than
that. But now we must at least estimate how much charge channeling they do. Otherwise we can't
hope to get a final answer here. When we pursue this question with more detail in later papers, we will
find that it depends upon the neutrons' position in the nucleus, but with nitrogen and oxygen, we find
them only in two positions: either they are in standard positions in alphas (as below), or they are paired
with an outermost proton, pulling charge into the axial holes. In the alphas, they are positioned with
their equators parallel to the proton equators.
This allows their charge field emission—which is polar
—to act to keep the protons apart and from interfering with one another. But since the neutron poles
are now aligned to the axial charge movement, they can also channel charge along parallel corridors.
In other words, in this position they divert part of the charge that the protons would otherwise have
channeled equatorially.
Since smaller nuclei like nitrogen and oxygen don't have carousel levels, no
bonding is taking place along those equatorial channels, and the neutrons are completely free to divert a
part of the charge in those channels back to the axial channel.

Emphasis is mine.

The first bolded statement agrees with what we have been saying. The neutrons sit up-right.

The second bolded statement contradicts our findings that the neutrons take charge from the through-charge of the protons in the alpha.

Did Miles change his mind when he wrote the Deuterium paper?

I am a little concerned with part of that second statement where Miles says "protons would otherwise have channeled equatorially". This implies that the protons have not actually channeled it at all, but would have if not for the neutrons. But it could also be read that the neutrons take part of that equatorial charge emission for themselves, and therefore, it does not become part of the equatorial emission (or does not stay a part of that emission for very long). Either way, the neutrons are not using the through-charge in this paper.
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Re: Neutron charge emission - where does it go?

Post by Jared Magneson on Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:15 am

Interesting, Nevyn. I'm going to bring this up to him and see what he thinks directly. He seemed to have no problem with my Alpha video from a modeling perspective, but I think it's still pretty rough as a demonstration. Still working on getting the system to behave purely on mechanics and not on animation tricks, though.

I was able to come up with a rough video of Hydrogen which may help us discern what's happening in Helium a little better. Here, I have the neutron "feeding" the proton, or the through-charge holding the neutron in the nucleus rather. Not sure how accurate this is, and I'd appreciate input.

https://vimeo.com/206241864


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Re: Neutron charge emission - where does it go?

Post by Nevyn on Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:44 pm

I just read that paragraph again and noticed something I missed yesterday.

Miles Mathis wrote:But since the neutron poles are now aligned to the axial charge movement, they can also channel charge along parallel corridors.

and

Miles Mathis wrote:the neutrons are completely free to divert a part of the charge in those channels back to the axial channel.

So they are doing both. The neutrons feed off of the protons emission, but divert it back into the through-charge streams. Therefore, neutrons in the alpha actually boost the charge of an atom.
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Re: Neutron charge emission - where does it go?

Post by Nevyn on Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:48 pm

That is the only way I can see hydrogen being built. There is no other place for the neutron to go. In that position, it is blocking the charge from one side of the proton which means that hydrogen actually has less energy than a proton.

Where does the electron go? My guess is it is on the other side from the neutron. But it could be possible for it to get stuck in between the neutron and the proton before the neutron gets there. That would make it very hard to remove it and ionize hydrogen without removing that neutron.
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Re: Neutron charge emission - where does it go?

Post by Jared Magneson on Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:17 pm

I'm showing the electron as blue, located at the south pole there like it is in the He4 alpha, but I'm also showing it to scale. Maybe not helpful for these diagrams? Maybe I should make it 1/10th the size instead of 1/1821st? Would simple labels to one side be more helpful?


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